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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Release id #246233 : Operation MILF
@Oswald and defenders of AI. Would you be OK if the winning demo (or the rest) was coded by ChatGPT to the most part, and not by you?
I think this picture for the MOST part was done by Rexbeng not AI. I think its fair as long as the compo and other participants are ok with AI used. Also Rexbeng OPENLY admitting and explaining the process makes it ok.
Also I am not defending AI usage here, I dislike 4gentE's trolling for the most part. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 219 |
I suspect Oswald would be perfectly OK if a winning demo was made by AI. As long as it’s not made by wacek/Arise. Only then & there the real husky-like whining starts. As We’ve all seen (heard) in the past.
Oswald, dear:
So, first you concluded I was being gay for thinking that MILF acronym in combination with a woman in uniform holding a rifle is slightly distasteful (my exact words). No trolling, no whining. Stating what I thought, normally talking with rexbeng.
Then, a few posts later you said that I was anti-AI-trolling.
So which is it?
It was the same with the “origins of the demoscene” conversation. You chimed in half-thread only to take a dump on what I was saying.
You seem to harbour an unhealthy obsession to engage in conversations in which I’m conversing with other people and take the opposite stance (of course opulently peppered with your own brand of immature primitivism). You literally said it yourself: “Also I am not defending AI usage here, I dislike 4gentE's trolling for the most part.” In other words you don’t give a cr*p about the subject at hand, you only care about me. And you’ve been this way on and off ever since your friend got called out for wiring, and not even by me, back then I only stepped in when you and your other rabid buddy started spewing despicable insults toward some of the greatest gfx artists in the C64 world of today. So, while being kinda flattered that you seem to care a lot about me, thanking you for your attention, I’d rather you found another idol to love or hate. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3050 |
Quote: @Oswald and defenders of AI. Would you be OK if the winning demo (or the rest) was coded by ChatGPT to the most part, and not by you?
I think this picture for the MOST part was done by Rexbeng not AI. I think its fair as long as the compo and other participants are ok with AI used. Also Rexbeng OPENLY admitting and explaining the process makes it ok.
Also I am not defending AI usage here, I dislike 4gentE's trolling for the most part.
"OPENLY admitting"
That's the point! It's minimum requirement. Give credits where credits is due. Be open about the process. And Rexbeng was open.
I think guys from the ‘Pixel art in the C64 demoscene’ initiative would call this a minimum requirement. But it's on them to comment on that. It is now burried under the pile of other discussions, but maybe their document should be published somewhere for reference (maybe even with some kind of "join the initiative form" ;-).
P.S.: I like the pic. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3050 |
I think you should backpedal a little, guys, and refrain from ad hominem argumentation, otherwise, do what pleases you. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 219 |
@CreaMD: Oswald’s engagement in this case is in its entirety (again) ad hominem which he even stated. He was there in the comments section exclusively to engage ad hominem. He can’t even decide what’s the exact focus of my “trolling”, but it matters little to him, he just wants to come in guns blazing. So, I apologize to you and everyone else, especially rexbeng for idiotism that ensued. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
Oh no!
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Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 427 |
@TheSarge: The storyboard of your 1337 demo was AFAIR written by ChatGPT ;-)
If LLM can help me coding the most boring parts, or optimise some realtime calculations I don't see the problem with it. We will only end up with even better demos. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11357 |
Would be so cool if i could just tell chatGPT what i want to see and then it produces code for me.
But no, i have to use chatGPZ instead and it sux :( |
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The Sarge
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 48 |
@Digger. :D No. Where have you heard this? Completely false. And it's not MY demo, it's the team of Trident, me, Fegolhuzz and Soya.
The story was written by Trident which we then did some minor adjustments along the way which is just natural in a creative process.
ChatGPT was used for the AIs taunting texts in some parts, which was on purpose because it was the AI that was attacking the humans. So we wanted these weird texts. It was something like 4 sentences.
And story boards are not written, they are drawn. :) I think you are mixing up things here.
And finally this is not about 13:37. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting DiggerIf LLM can help me coding the most boring parts, or optimise some realtime calculations I don't see the problem with it.
I wouldn't call it a "problem", but personally I'd argue that even if the outcome may be similar or even equal, you deprive yourself of the unique experience as a human being to even put effort into the most mundane tasks to achieve something "good".
I feel the more I don't rely on tools by others and make my own or just do stuff "by hand" where you could just copy, convert or whatever the more I'm satisfied with the result, even then, when I think that the result would be percieved as "better" by others, because I may have made several "mistakes" in my approach.
Because what do I care about the perception of others about the result, when I'm the only one that actually experiences the process of creating itself which usually takes up way more lifetime than the short occasions when one can present their "art" to others? So for me the process itself should be fullfilling for me and a challenge to my own will power.
And using "shortcuts" often leaves an unsatified feeling within me.
// philosophical talk end
Of course I know we all – me included – often just don't have the time to follow the above mentioned approach to its fullest :-) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
if you are lazy to do the job then stop being a moderator, instead of blocking comments to a release for everyone.
Submitted by Count Zero [PM] on 2 October 2024
Dont feel like cleaning up here or moving any of your "comments" to the forum where it would belong - closing. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3050 |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
@spider-j: imho shortcuts are (mostly) good. leaving execution to being automated is good. in general, making it easier for sole creative process to shine is good. what's wrong is to come up with stock ideas that AI would serve you first prompted (and would of course beat you on that field by sheer immediacy and cheapness).
i know this does not quite apply to c64 scene, where skills are everything and originality is valued a bit below them, but you asked for it yourself by going philosophically out of bounds ;) |
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acrouzet
Registered: May 2020
Posts: 91 |
Everyone has a different creative process that's fulfilling to them, and I think it's good for that to be respected. Some people prefer to play an acoustic instrument while others prefer arranging tracker patterns, but despite some who say that "computer music has no soul", there's enough space for both to be appreciated for what they respectively bring to the table.
But this AI is very much a new weird middle ground between creation, using others' work, and automation. We're all just trying to figure out how exactly to apply our existing morality and desires to it. It's a debate that needs to happen, but frankly, while I'm against how AI is being handled currently, I think that it does require deeper insight and respect for what exactly different people want in the world rather than just picking a side and repeating the same talking points at each other. In my view, people (on both "sides") are thinking too much about "how can this replace things?" rather than "how can this truly integrate into and augment the creative process?" People will have different answers, and I think there's perhaps some solution that can address that.
Surely airing personal beef in the CSDb forums isn't it, though? |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 299 |
Quote: Everyone has a different creative process that's fulfilling to them, and I think it's good for that to be respected. Some people prefer to play an acoustic instrument while others prefer arranging tracker patterns, but despite some who say that "computer music has no soul", there's enough space for both to be appreciated for what they respectively bring to the table.
But this AI is very much a new weird middle ground between creation, using others' work, and automation. We're all just trying to figure out how exactly to apply our existing morality and desires to it. It's a debate that needs to happen, but frankly, while I'm against how AI is being handled currently, I think that it does require deeper insight and respect for what exactly different people want in the world rather than just picking a side and repeating the same talking points at each other. In my view, people (on both "sides") are thinking too much about "how can this replace things?" rather than "how can this truly integrate into and augment the creative process?" People will have different answers, and I think there's perhaps some solution that can address that.
Surely airing personal beef in the CSDb forums isn't it, though?
It enables creative process for some people. Is that good or bad? It's not me to decide, but i'm happy i can make something that does not look ugly. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 219 |
Quote:In my view, people (on both "sides") are thinking too much about "how can this replace things?" rather than "how can this truly integrate into and augment the creative process?"
That is because the exact (in fact perhaps the only, besides making a ton of money for select capitalists in the process) aim of this tech is to "disrupt" i.e. "replace". Not to "augment". And that's exactly what this tech is going to do. Replace a lot of people. Folks who like to play with these gadgets because they can also "augment", they "offer shortcuts", or "make them feel like artists" can pretend all they want that they don't see this obvious truth. But, instead they could just say "I don't care". Nobody is going to judge them. It's like with the environmental crisis, really. You can pretend that your lifestyle is not incompatible with wellbeing of the environment, or you can just admit that you don't care. |
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acrouzet
Registered: May 2020
Posts: 91 |
The current "type in text and get a result" models and the like are certainly part of the current implementation I don't exactly like. Machine learning is just an algorithm, it can be applied in many ways. Current uses of "AI" are just uninspired in my book. Whether or not AI will actually be applied in better ways remains to be seen, however. Part of it is just deciding and respecting what tradeoff between creativity and automation is broadly acceptable. Another is just sourcing AI training sets in a more ethical way.
It's unfortunate, but I think the best we can do is support creativity, like we always have. Even by supporting those who may use AI into furthering their own. It's like tracing. It may be good practice, but it's important to encourage growth (without shaming, unless they're deliberately deceptive). Regardless of what's going on in society, I have faith that artists can overcome it without falling into despair and bitterness. At least that's what I desire... |
