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2023-12-15 00:38

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5029

Release id #237162 : Tribute to Vangelis

@4gent,

1) feels you took those quotes out of context
2) I even said to 2 girls on the schoolyard when I was 9 that I'm never gonna have sex because its disgusting
3) Talent added so much of his own, that I consider it an original work, Vermeer traced outlines with pinhole camera, Talent used another work for reference I couldnt care less.

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2023-12-15 13:49

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 119

@Peacemaker:
When I pleaded with you not to stalk me, that includes not sending me PMs.
@everyone else :
Sorry for this interruption, carry on.

2023-12-15 13:50

Peacemaker

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 243

" The work here looks like done by hand basing on a reference. A method common for the most PETSCII gfx."

no, it looks like the use of a petscii converter.

2023-12-15 13:50

Peacemaker

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 243

Quoting 4gentE

@Peacemaker:
When I pleaded with you not to stalk me, that includes not sending me PMs.
@everyone else :
Sorry for this interruption, carry on.

yeah, i misclicked. i wanted to reply here but clicked on PM instead of QUOTE.. Shame on me, wont happen again. Dont feel stalked, brother ;)

2023-12-15 13:56

Flotsam

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 82

Quote: lol. what a childish reaction of you. as if i would stalk you where? croatia (csdb says so) or ukraine (the etsy page says so) :D
all i did was a image reverse search and found that little wood masterpiece.

Why would you reverse search an iconic picture that everyone already knows. I'm guessing the recognizeability was the point on this one. It's totally irrelevant to the ongoing discussion. And speaking of it, I've been following it (the discussion) like most of the active scene is, intensily and there's been a lot of good in it, but also too much of trying to sideline the discussion with nonsense. This is such nonsense. Why this hostility and tries at personal counter-attacks? Why not instead try to communicate like adults do and focus on the matter? I understand you're trying to defend Talent, but this is not the right way to do it. This bullshit just prolongs the agony when it's already pretty clear that the pic is a direct conversion of some other artist's work with some additional manual pixeling. The red tint on the beard is not the only telltale sign of this.

See Aomeba's reply... he obviously has understood the point of all this and without anyone asking has come out and openly told how his process involves references and converting too. I have absolutely nothing against using references, using modern tools - I happily use all technologies available myself to produce crappy pics to accompany my tunes. Total respect to Aomeba for being open about it. All this time I've been hoping that Talent would also be open about how this pic came to be and then we would be done with this and live happily ever after and respect eachother. With that said: Maybe it's time to just drop the discussion on this particular pic / person and speak generally. The point has been made and hopefully after this credit will be given to whom deserve it, including the original artists outside the scene.

I'm not a graphics guy and no-one cares about what or how I do my stuff, but I promise to be a better scener from now on and in the future releases mention if I use conversion, AI, references, whatnot. Because... why not?

Sorry for the long and confusing rant. I'm like that. Hopefully no-one read it. Peace, all.

2023-12-15 13:58

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 119

Quote:

no, it looks like the use of a petscii converter.

Of course, you would know better than Electric, you being such an expert, and him being a rookie. Anyway, please stop pulling away from the subject.

Quote:

yeah, i misclicked. i wanted to reply here but clicked on PM instead of QUOTE.. Shame on me, wont happen again. Dont feel stalked, brother ;)

OK, I get it, sorry for jumping at that man, I thought you were pulling my leg! ;)

Once again, sorry everybody for this meandering.

2023-12-15 14:00

Frostbyte

Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 174

OK my Final final words: partially echoing Electric, here's a wild idea: How about if we, collaboratively and retroactively, update as many graphics releases as we can with references to the original work(s), giving credit to the original author(s). This is what has been done with e.g. HVSC since day one, if a tune's original version is uncovered (either by the artists themselves or observing listeners), and no one gets butthurt about it, as they shouldn't. Usage of refs can be really obvious like with that famous pic of Lenin (where that woodwork isn't original work either, btw), or less obvious like with some reasonably unknown 3D artists. It doesn't matter.

This would NOT be to disrespect the C64 artist, but to respect the original artist, and to me, is common courtesy.

@Oswald I agree with you that the reimagined portrait of Vangelis was not the best example to spark this discussion, as there are plenty of compo entries even from the past few years that use references but it isn't mentioned, and in a demo it isn't as big of a deal as it is for "entertainment purposes" mainly. However you probably understand that Talent's claims about the originality of the source portrait which was later proven to be not true ignited the already warmed up discussion. And for a good reason. I still hope you can see the bigger picture, and the importance of graphics scene maturing their behaviour in this regard, rather than thinking that this is just a personal attack on Talent when "everyone else does it too".

2023-12-15 14:20

The Sarge

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 43

I agree with Electric, Frostbyte, Flotsam and probably more. You are sincerely caring for our little scene and the pixel art. Explaining well thought out ideas and taking your time to write them here. <3

This is an important discussion. We spend so much time making the graphics and we want it to be genuine and also that we compete on fair and equal grounds.

Everyone has their own style, none are more right than the other, quite the opposite! I love we having the diversity. But this is not what this is about, or being envious or whatever.
We just need to do better and make our own take on things. Everyone gets inspiration from day to day stuff. It's impossible to do 100% unique stuff. You can't go around the whole day having your eyes closed.
Being open minded and looking at things gives you ideas, a lot of ideas. And it's great! Inspiration and letting your work give birth to new ideas is the best thing. As was shown in some way in the Wired Ninja Compo. So many new funny takes on the idea that I personally never had thought of. In the context of WIRE it worked very well.

2023-12-15 15:22

Clarence

Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 119

We did meet and had a brief conversation with Talent back in 2015 at one of the Bob's pub meetings in Budapest, he told he already had a big catalog of unreleased hobby pixelworks where he used only the c64 palette for the fun of it, just to see how would it look like, but without taking into account other c64 specific limitations.
Back then Bob (or I) could not convince him to give a few images to see how would it fit into different gfx mode restrictions, he said could not care to release them or see them displayed on a c64.
I'm glad Talent changed his mind recently, and the releases with his graphics show his work can be applied to c64 format impressively good. In short: he did not come out of nowhere with this unique dithering style in a few months.

And concerning the Vangelis image as Oswald said "Talent's picture didnt even entered any compo, its just a friggin illustration in a demo", exactly.

Almost any good demo has lack of art references/workstages for the illustrations used in them. It's not Talent's fault that people voted him into #1 position, and it's not an excuse to demand from him anything.

2023-12-15 15:52

The Sarge

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 43

Well, this demo entered Transmission64 this year. So it did participate in a compo. Of course good graphics in a demo helps it place higher. And if we want to compete on the same fair level for all then maybe the same rules applies for demo compos too? To be fair, this was a demo about Vangelis and having a photo of him in it is relevant. So for me this is a valid reason for having it. Just that maybe the original should have been credited.

And no-one are demanding him to show his technique. We are politely asking but instead we hear nothing from Talent himself, only hearsay from other people. I find it a bit strange.

2023-12-15 16:19

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5029

" Just that maybe the original should have been credited."

@Sarge have you credited the original here? have you been whitchunted by various gfxes for not doing so ?

(excuse me the poportions dont match exactly but its obvious enough)

Sorry but I'm not buying into the bullshit coming from individuals having done the same as Talent, that this is to make the scene better.