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2023-12-15 00:38

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017

Release id #237162 : Tribute to Vangelis

@4gent,

1) feels you took those quotes out of context
2) I even said to 2 girls on the schoolyard when I was 9 that I'm never gonna have sex because its disgusting
3) Talent added so much of his own, that I consider it an original work, Vermeer traced outlines with pinhole camera, Talent used another work for reference I couldnt care less.

... 192 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2024-02-01 01:23

Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 557

I hope nobody quits the scene over this...

What next? Coders quitting because story and animation demos make it to the top of the charts? Or those winning compos due to using ripped (and afaik unattributed?) graphics from a hundred games?

"The scene is the scene is the scene. Always has been, always will be."*

* - I have no idea what that means either.. but it's definitely a t-shirt quote.

2024-02-01 01:29

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114

"Whatever they do, the scene always wins."

2024-02-01 03:36

Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 557

In the demoscene's electrifying race,
Where coders vie in digital embrace.
Breaking records with each line they trace,
In scrollers, bobs, a high-tech chase.

Plasma waves in hypnotic grace,
Side borders stretch, expand their space.
Bitmaps scroll in endless lace,
Sprite multiplexers in harmonious place.

Here, the story's in the code's pace,
Not in words, but in the technical base.
In every byte, a hidden face,
Of excellence in the coder's case.

A world where algorithms interlace,
In the demoscene's record-breaking space.

Narrative tales may bring some zest,
But the real scene is where #CodeIsKing.

2024-02-01 07:25

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4595

Quote: It isn't new, but the point of the discussion is whether it's really fair to use references/AI/conversion tools without making those processes clear to the audience. Morpheus mentioned that this knowledge made the graphics in Wonderland XIV less special to him and I'm confident that feeling would be fairly common. It could certainly affect voting if a demo using converted artwork was going up against a demo with high-quality, original pieces.

If Talent wants to quit that's up to him, but I know there are also some top graphicians who are feeling very demotivated by this unfairness.

Personally, I don't think there's much point in arguing about the past, but I know a lot of graphicians feel the honest and respectful thing to do in the future if for people to be more open about any shortcuts.

I agree that original pieces of pixel art impress me more - feels more real and dedicated, so I somewhat agree to what Morpheus said. Still I haven't seen this kind of pretty strong reaction, pointing out every source everywhere - on Facebook, in Trivia, here in this thread etc, before. Is it because Wonderland is a high end demo and ended up high at X?

2024-02-01 08:51

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034

My timeline of involvement:
1. Read this thread. Then the other one.
2. Notice voice of sanity vs bull.
3. Notice Talents comment under some release clearly indicating that he feels that he is treated unfair. (Let's thank to his defenders for this false feeling of entitlement)
4. Notice Bob's bragging about SIGGRAPH, that is an event clearly outside our bubble. (btw. I wonder what would their bubble say if they knew about Emma Frost/Marvel IP being butchered for this demo)
5. I learn about WL XIV gfx being not original. Start digging. Astronaut, Emma Frost...
6. I decide to keep my mouth shut (publicly) for "better good".
7. Joe releases No Way Away, i like it, so I post latest Joe's gfx on FB labelling it: "Friendly reminder about existence of contemporary C64 art. ;-)" (it get's surprisingly high amount of reactions, dunno why)
8. Some unknown genius releases the ArtRecollection. Was he triggered by that FB post? I don't know. I don't care.
8. I post the trivia in WL XIV
9. Unknown genius updates his entry adding "credits".
10. Morpheus bumps this thread back by his comment.
11. I post my statement here and later on FB.

As far as my motivation is concerned. All I want is that we stopped pretending that it's okay to operate like this. Let's have at least a common decency and be level 2. give credit where credit is due for general releases.

As far as graphics competition is concerned, and ways to make it fair (plus practical implementations), that is far more complex topic. The actual artists involved are trying to discuss that.

2024-02-01 08:58

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3034

I agree

2024-02-01 09:11

Dr. TerrorZ

Registered: Oct 2013
Posts: 11

I saw the Vangelis image, thought "ok that's a rather nice, very technical rendition".

After it was confirmed to be made from a photo, I was not surprised. It did not change my opinion all that much. In the context of the demo I felt it was semi-ok, people did this with images of Jarre etc. in Amiga days and with even less effort.

These days, it would have been good to make some note of it, though.

Then I saw the Wonderland image in really quick passing, just thought "well that's super nice, apart from maybe the strange decorative border and some overdithering in the background".

After I learned it was copied from an illustration, was somewhat disappointed, again perhaps not that much surprised. This time I didn't think the "demo context" rescues it.

Maybe if a demo is something where outsiders are shown "what the C64 can do" then it no longer matters what the human talent (heh) is capable. But I think the C64 audiences should be made clear what is being demonstrated? Original work or a fancy dithering algorithm? I no longer know.

Now that I see that Talent is credited with roughly a handful of works, and the most important ones are copies, I don't think it's unfair at all to criticize the practice. It doesn't need to get all that personal, though...

2024-02-01 09:54

Hate Bush

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 453

Quote: "Whatever they do, the scene always wins."

*whines

2024-02-01 10:00

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 117

Quote:

story and animation demos make it to the top of the charts?

Oh, we've seen and heard a loud whining concert from Oswald about this (about E2IRA). However, when it comes to gfx he has a whole other, diametrically opposite, set of "principles" and feelings.

2024-02-01 11:05

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Quote: I agree that original pieces of pixel art impress me more - feels more real and dedicated, so I somewhat agree to what Morpheus said. Still I haven't seen this kind of pretty strong reaction, pointing out every source everywhere - on Facebook, in Trivia, here in this thread etc, before. Is it because Wonderland is a high end demo and ended up high at X?

I think these feelings have probably been bubbling in the background for some time and it's taken a particularly high-profile release to blow the doors off. Personally I'd rather keep the focus on transparency rather than individual people or releases, although it's helpful to have examples that illustrate the problem.

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