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2023-12-15 00:38

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5025

Release id #237162 : Tribute to Vangelis

@4gent,

1) feels you took those quotes out of context
2) I even said to 2 girls on the schoolyard when I was 9 that I'm never gonna have sex because its disgusting
3) Talent added so much of his own, that I consider it an original work, Vermeer traced outlines with pinhole camera, Talent used another work for reference I couldnt care less.

... 192 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2024-01-30 19:06

Morpheus

Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 152

Many have inquired about my perspective on this discussion. I have been hesitant to share my thoughts as my concern with Talent is more on a personal level. However, I will focus my 50 cents on the graphical discussion now that the storm has settled here.

I don't think there's any reason to doubt that Talent can push pixels, and I don't believe he's using a conversion tool either. These are the rumours I've heard. Using modern tools is of course perfectly fine. You'd be stupid not to use them. Using reference images and AI are fine too, but if you most of the time if not *all* of the time use reference images (and/or AI) that you just pixel over, where's the originality in that? For Talent, this would be true for his work in the Vangelis tribute, Purple, Wonderland 14 and perhaps other demos. As an artist, where does the joy lie in taking too many shortcuts? I've also experimented with this approach because I was mesmerised by the modern tool I was using, but it's not something I'm particularly proud of.

I firmly believe that graphics submitted in graphic competitions should be 100% original. On parties in the past, it was easier to spot if an image was wired and we'd all scream ”Lamer!” in unison and downvote those kind of images because we believed in originality. While I'm uncertain if an ethics document is the ideal way forward or if people will give it due consideration, I know that I'll always favour original artwork over a copied, wired, or AI-generated piece.

I hope that future discussions can be held peacefully and that something good comes out of all this.

2024-01-30 19:21

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11136

I'll have to do some nitpicking - i keep reading 256 colors, produced by mixing the 16 C64 colors. That however is wrong - It's 136 colors that you get this way.

2024-01-31 08:43

Flotsam

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 81

Quote: I'll have to do some nitpicking - i keep reading 256 colors, produced by mixing the 16 C64 colors. That however is wrong - It's 136 colors that you get this way.

Even more nitpicking... if you take this literally, you should only count colour combinations that have different colours mixed: "Any of the 256 Hicolor color indexes is created from blending 2 of the 16 C64 colors together."

In that case the number of combinations would be just 120. But I'm guessing the phrase shouldn't be taken literally and f.e black + black is considered a colour mix.

2024-01-31 13:41

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3035

Original
Quoting Morpheus

As an artist, where does the joy lie in taking too many shortcuts?

I understand that for a demo, when there's a need to create numerous graphics efficiently, shortcuts and effective working methods are necessary, and that's perfectly fine. I also believe it's acceptable to use tools for "pose-changing" or "3D-rendering" to position your main protagonist in various poses for consistent storytelling. In the case of Wonderland XIV, that would be the character of Alice.

However, the problem arises when the character of Alice turns out to be an uncredited adaptation of Marvel's character Storm, created by at least two different artists. I find this approach lacking dignity. To me, the spectrum from unoriginality (lameness) to creativity (coolness) has several levels, so let's discuss them:

0. Lame
You convert an image (the tool and process is not important here) and pass is as your own artwork, no credit to the original author and no mention of source material, no retouch, just straight conversion.

1. Ignorant and rude
You convert the original, heavily retouch it and pass is as your own artwork, no credit to original author and no mention of source material

2. Satisfactory
You convert the original, heavily retouch it, give credit to the original author and mention source material/inspiration somewhere in note to the demo or in credits part.

3. Fair and decent
You seek the author's permission or at least notify them of your intention to use their work, convert the original, heavily retouch it, credit the original author, and mention the source material or inspiration in a note or in the credits part of the demo.

4. Immaculate
You obtain the 3D model, create your own poses or base for your artwork, do all the detailing and texturing yourself, and credit the model's original creator.

5. Admirable
You create all the sketches and artwork yourself, regardless of the original medium, convert it, and do whatever you wish because it's your own work, your characters, your art. Sidenote: I even think that if you were able to pull it of all using AI, and make it look absoloutely fabulous AND most importantly mentioned that in your note or demo credits, that would be perfectly acceptable border case.

6. Praiseworthy
You draw or pixel everything from scratch using a cross-platform graphics tool, which might be a bit overkill but is still reasonable.

7. Awesomenessnessnesss
You pixel it all on C64 and let coders stitch it together (if it's 3 page horizontal scroll image for example) - you are crazy dude, srsly. But you are fkn' cool too. Everyone except of few haters will give you straight 10 as graphician (you wasted a lot of time, and your girlfriend left you, but nobody can take it from you, you made something that you can be proud of, and you can show it off on SIGGRAPH, get award for it and boast about it for eternity.

Now, let me ask you a question. Where do you think Talent's artwork of Alice and Astronaut drinking beer on moon falls on this scale, particularly in regards to the high production value and substantial effort invested in the Wonderland XIV demo?

Context: https://csdb.dk/release/?id=232980&show=trivia#trivia

---------------
And for those who think this topic should die off. Yes I think so too, but we should at least try to resolve it with mutual agreement. One side tried to propose something. Other (?) answered with counter accusations and a lame fake demo. I don't think anyone needs another round of that crap. It's obvious that we all have (ahem) history and not everything we did, or do is perfect, but it's in my opinion positive, to learn from that and try to evolve. Most of us are over 40, we won't live forever, but some of our creations might. Let's leave a flawless heritage.

2024-01-31 14:01

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5025

I find it disgusting that up until this point everyone did it, esp in demos, and now suddenly its a holy crusade of the oregano nazis against talent, IMHO this happens because his technique is too good they just have to find something to drag him down.

2024-01-31 16:48

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11136

Quote:

In that case the number of combinations would be just 120. But I'm guessing the phrase shouldn't be taken literally and f.e black + black is considered a colour mix.

120 mixed plus 16 pure colors - of course :)

That said - this is also wrong :) The VICII produces slightly different colors in odd and even lines (on PAL anyway), so taking this into account - you get even more. (If you are converting into "textures" for something like 8x8/8x4 effects - knowing this can be useful)

2024-01-31 21:34

Morpheus

Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 152

CreaMD, it's intriguing to discuss, and I share the sentiment about Alice being derived from an existing character. The feeling becomes a little "meh" to me. It's not as special as I thought it was. Additionally, I sense that the tone in your writing is a bit too regulated for my taste. You should be free to create the stuff you want to create and in the way you choose, but at the same time, things have become more complicated with the easy shortcuts that you can take... I just hope people don't leave the scene because they feel that they can't compete against stuff done with AI, etc. or that they get frustrated over loosing against people that "cheat".

Oswald, I'm curious about the term "oregano nazis." Care to explain? In any case, personally, there's zero jealous involved. In fact, I'm not fond of his style at all. It's akin to the concept of quantization in music production; if you over-quantize, the music feels too rigid. Trivium, for instance, embodies this stiffness for me, and I sense a similar vibe in Talent's work. It's unfortunate that he's become the sole focus here, and I hope other artists employing a similar design approach as him will come forward for more constructive discussions.

2024-01-31 22:19

hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4606

I just hope Talent won't quit the scene due to this recent witch hunt.

I didn't read all the posts in the thread, but it's not new to use reference gfx or even pure converts in top demos. But today it is? (Yes. It's a completely different thing in gfx compos).

2024-01-31 22:53

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

Unsure if Talent will quit or not, but unless actively reading these forums, it is simply a storm in a tea cup.

2024-02-01 00:09

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Quote: I just hope Talent won't quit the scene due to this recent witch hunt.

I didn't read all the posts in the thread, but it's not new to use reference gfx or even pure converts in top demos. But today it is? (Yes. It's a completely different thing in gfx compos).

It isn't new, but the point of the discussion is whether it's really fair to use references/AI/conversion tools without making those processes clear to the audience. Morpheus mentioned that this knowledge made the graphics in Wonderland XIV less special to him and I'm confident that feeling would be fairly common. It could certainly affect voting if a demo using converted artwork was going up against a demo with high-quality, original pieces.

If Talent wants to quit that's up to him, but I know there are also some top graphicians who are feeling very demotivated by this unfairness.

Personally, I don't think there's much point in arguing about the past, but I know a lot of graphicians feel the honest and respectful thing to do in the future if for people to be more open about any shortcuts.

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