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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Tags (yet again)
It is still unbeknownst to me why tags weren't implemented yet, or why are some so stubbornly against it. This portal is almost completely based on IMDb, and tags are one of the most useful features on that site.
Just a few of the useful features it would bring:
- finding demos containing an effect, record, theme...
- finding musics with a specific style, instrument, musical technique...
- finding images with a certain motive, character, technique, color-sceme...
- finding a specific usage of a tool/utility
- finding a magazine with an article about XY
- etc. etc...
It wouldn't take more than an hour to implement: another textbox on the "add comments" page with the Tags label (separated with commas) -> parsing the field and popping it out on the profile-page (as links, so if I'd click on a tag, I'd be redirected to a search-results page with a list of all those products where the same or similar tag was present).
Of course it wouldn't work right away, populating would certainly take some time. Just as everything else on this site.
Any thoughts? And in case of another instant rejection, I'd definitely love to get a bit more reasonable answer than the usual "I don't think we need it. Oh, and look here's my middle finger too. thxbai"
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
I´m defintely pro-tags. It'd make this database much more accessible and all other obvious reasons. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
yeah pro tags here too |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Count me in as well, would be so nice to be able to search for demos with specific effects in them. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
And before Groepaz jumps in with his highly expected "no because csdb is only about preserving stuff, not childish web 2.0 shitbits" routine, let me quote a sentence from the Help page:
"CSDb (the Commodore 64 Scene Database) is an attempt to gather information about the Commodore 64 (C64) scene throughout time and store it in an easily accessible and heavily cross referenced database"
Tags would definitely improve on that attempt.
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Carrion
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317 |
\o/ for JB being active again
and
\o/ for TAGS!!! |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
I like the thought of tags, depends mainly on wether or not Perff is able to code this, and how big a deal that would be. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: I like the thought of tags, depends mainly on wether or not Perff is able to code this, and how big a deal that would be.
I'm sure he's able to do it. I've implemented own customized tag modules into numerous sites, so I have a bit of insight: such a basic component as I'm begging for could be done in a relatively short time, and it's really not a big deal as long as the database structure doesn't need some serious redesign for it (what I strongly doubt).
Of course, priorities first, we could wait.
Yes, tags are something which are not necessary for preserving stuff, but they'd would bring a really useful additional functionality to the site itself. The transparency of huge databases are directly proportional to the amount of its cross-referenced data. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
so jailbird will spend considerable time on supervising the tags and removing/fixing duplicates \o/
i can see how that will work.
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: so jailbird will spend considerable time on supervising the tags and removing/fixing duplicates \o/
i can see how that will work.
Duplicates, that would be a problem really?? Well simply don't let the same two tags to be added to one certain release and problem solved.
I want to enter a tag which was previously entered? Give me an error message.
And that still wouldn't put too much burden on Perff. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
i am talking about removing the "ifli" tag when there already is an "interlaced fli" tag.
but since we have a volunteer now, i think thats not an issue. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Suggestion on how to make both sides happy: Run a testdrive for a month. If it does not work, remove the feature again. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting Gropeazi am talking about removing the "ifli" tag when there already is an "interlaced fli" tag.
but since we have a volunteer now, i think thats not an issue.
Uh-oh, my sarcasm-meter is tingling!
I don't see why is this a problem, basically that's what tags for, you could enter both. Actually, preferably both. If someone enters only one version, another user will add the other. The more tags, the better. So simple.
When I want to find a certain motive of a picture, do you realize that at the moment I'm forced to search the god damn comments? And that's usually a hit&miss.
Maybe it will help you if you think of tags as an accessible and visually comprehensible, searchable, compact, crosslinked comment system?
Quoting NafcomSuggestion on how to make both sides happy: Run a testdrive for a month. If it does not work, remove the feature again.
Well there is one side, and then there is Gropeaz, who seems to reject this idea solely on hardheaded principle. I'm not sure he'd approve it even if tags would cure cancer.
Anyhow, one month wouldn't be enough to test a tag system. It will start to do its job properly once enough tags are entered to make a difference. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
does it REALLY matter about duplicates?
after all is something gets tagged Multi colour, Multi COLOR or multicolor, does it really make any difference?
all it means is that 3 search criteria will pick it up. it has no downside what so ever except the extra bit of storage space.
in actual fact, tags have no downside at all. if they aren't entered you are no worse off than you started and if they are then you better off.
A win/win situation |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Quote:I don't see why is this a problem, basically that's what tags for, you could enter both.
and thats why you clean them up, yes.
and did you notice that i choose an example which is entirely stupid because that "tag" already exists?
that reminds me that you also will make sure no info is lost because ppl will blindlessly dump it into tags than creating proper database entries. ie delete the "ifli" and "interlaced fli" tags alltogether and edit the respective entries accordingly. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting Gropeazand thats why you clean them up, yes.
You don't seem to comprehend the idea behind tags. The only thing you'd be forced to clean up would be the non-related entries. Everything else is just useful info. Those who enter non-related data should be warned not to do so, on a certain number of warnings you'd do the same as you'd do with a user who spams the database (kick his ass out from CSDb).
Quoting Gropeazand did you notice that i choose an example which is entirely stupid because that "tag" already exists?
And what if I want to tag a demo or an intro with ifli or interlace fli because it contains an ifli picture. How is not a tag at all better than any of those two???
Furthermore, please explain to me how to find a demo with an ifli image in it at the moment? Without tags.
Quoting Gropeazthat reminds me that you also will make sure no info is lost because ppl will blindlessly dump it into tags than creating proper database entries. ie delete the "ifli" and "interlaced fli" tags alltogether and edit the respective entries accordingly.
"ppl will blindlessly dump it into tags"???
Can't tell if you're sarcastic again, or actually serious. So you say that people have the tendencies to add release properties into the comments section? The tags textbox would be a part of the comment section. I am not sure how mutherfucking dumb one should be to enter the properties there instead selecting it from a list when submitting the release. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Groepaz: Do you have any examples of webaites where tags are being misused like you predict? Or what's the reason why you think you know how it would turn out?
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
Well, i am still for it. I think tags can make a valuable addition to the site. But it is in the end up to Perff, and wether he can/wants to code it.
I think groepaz is not 100% against tags in general, he is i guess just pointing out that certain tags already excist. Also, by playing devil's advocate he usually gets out all the potential problems before coding commences :)
To me, something that would use a seperate tag system like jailbird proposes would only add to the csdb.
Now lets wait until klaus feels like reading the forum :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting CruzerGroepaz: Do you have any examples of webaites where tags are being misused like you predict? Or what's the reason why you think you know how it would turn out?
I'd be interested too. IMDb, which is also almost 100% community driven (and that means hundreds of thousands of potential idiots who could ruin it), has a really awesome tag system. I can't count the times it was useful for broadening my horizons or to find new, amusing stuff. Last time we were discussing tags on the forum and I mentioned this to Groepaz his answer was something like "I don't like it". He's simply not objective in this matter.
Quoting CelticI think groepaz is not 100% against tags in general, he is i guess just pointing out that certain tags already excist. Also, by playing devil's advocate he usually gets out all the potential problems before coding commences :)
But why would it be a problem if a certain tag mimics the release's type or property? Why is it a problem at all if we have "duplicates" amongst tags? I don't see any drawbacks here, except if utterly dumb people enter actual release properties into the tags textbox. Or, if someone wants to mess with the data on purpose, but that's another story. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
To illustrate the process of entering tags.
Clicking on the "Add comments" link would take you here, where you'd enter your desired tags (if there are literally duplicate tags, there could be either ignored or an error message could be sent to the user).
The tags would show up on the profile page with the previously entered ones from other users (of course you'd have the ability to delete or edit entered tags, just as it is possible for any other "comment-section" element).
And finally, clicking on the tags would lead you to a regular search-results page where all those releases would show up which are labeled with the same tags. |
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
To help with consistency, it would be good for a unique tag list to be available to select from, as well as a field to add new ones.
+1 for tags.
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: To help with consistency, it would be good for a unique tag list to be available to select from, as well as a field to add new ones.
+1 for tags.
agreed! +1
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Quote:Groepaz: Do you have any examples of webaites where tags are being misused like you predict?
to be honest, i find them useless on most sites that use them. and they are especially bad on sites that dont have god knows how many users (like csdb). its the good old voting problem again - the only way to fix it is to get more people involved.
Quote:I don't see any drawbacks here, except if utterly dumb people enter actual release properties into the tags textbox
since you would be looking after it, thats not a problem =) |
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
The CSDb has always been self policing. I don't understand why anyone would suspect a change in behavior with the introduction of tags.
J |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting Gropeaz its the good old voting problem again - the only way to fix it is to get more people involved.
Hold on, there's a difference. Even one single tag would bring valuable content to a product page. However, a vote is someone's subjective opinion, often frown upon, and it's not a beneficial part of the information related to the product. Secondly, the vote-system is simply flawed, a lot of users hate it, don't want to use it, or use it anonymously (out of fear). Why would be the same with tags? As opposed to voting, it won't be a penis-size contest. By he same logic you argue against tags, one could also disapprove the comment-system, the forum, the charts, the bbcode, the history on your userpage, heck, even the site's design itself, almost everything except pure, raw data presentation.
Don't understand me wrong, a few of us value the work you do here, but you often seem to completely forget that the site is actually based on hundreds, if not thousands of people: those who regularly upload or actually make something on the C64, so please forgive us when we feel that CSDb doesn't exclusively belongs to the handful of moderators.
OK then, let's summarize the pros and cons of tags:
Cons:
- some very dumb people who can't distinguish an empty text-box with a "Tags" label from the product properties dropdown may or may not mess up their release-page
- takes time to grow to a useful size (just like everything else on this site)
- it's useless for Groepaz
Pros:
- a cross-referencing functionality, helping in database transparency
- finding related products with ease (e.g. demos with plot records, musics with fast tempo, graphics with a grey color-scheme, tools for fonts, etc etc etc); that is currently impossible without tags
- the majority (if not all) of the users are actually in favor of it
I think I'll rest my case here. Doesn't seems we could move on further from this point.
It's now on Perff. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3187 |
"- the majority (if not all) of the users are actually in favor of it"
You're imagining things. I don't see THAT much people yelling for it actually.
I really wonder if the people asking for it would spend their time filling the tags everywhere, because you know, they don't fill by themselves. Once implemented someone has to do the job. Current situation is that 1% of csdb users actually enter useful infos, rest just whine all day doing absolutely nothing. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
yes np i will do my 80 odd entries, maybe Bob and dokks and Sits too. Pete I am sure will tag all the MT stuff and possibly between us begin tagging the released at CNET stuff.
perhaps (gasp) people on here could actually be encouraged to tag their own stuff.
maybe, just maybe most folks on here are just so sick of being shouted down by the negative bastards for 12 years, that they just don't want to stick their heads above the parapet any more?
How many people have said no? just one. that does not mean to say the rest are against it. It just means to say they have been beaten into submission by a certain vocal minority on here.
and some of us haven't :P
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: "- the majority (if not all) of the users are actually in favor of it"
You're imagining things. I don't see THAT much people yelling for it actually.
I really wonder if the people asking for it would spend their time filling the tags everywhere, because you know, they don't fill by themselves. Once implemented someone has to do the job. Current situation is that 1% of csdb users actually enter useful infos, rest just whine all day doing absolutely nothing.
Not yelling for it now that's for sure, but no one except Groepaz stood up against it so vehemently.
And once again: why is bare minimal info worse than no info at all? If half of the 1% of CSDb users who actually enter useful infos would enter some tag-data as well, I'd already call it a success.
Nevertheless, there's a huge common set of CSDb users and active C64 sceners who can't find the time to participate in maintaining the database as they're busy with other C64 related activities, BUT would like to use an accessible, user friendly, familiar platform where their works are presented to the general public. Some of the moderators constantly forget this. Hence the reactions you and the mods label as "whining".
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
I could see myself adding a lot of tags, if it's not implemented in a userunfriendly way where you have to go throuh 3 steps that each take 10 seconds to load for each tag you wanna add. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: I could see myself adding a lot of tags, if it's not implemented in a userunfriendly way where you have to go throuh 3 steps that each take 10 seconds to load for each tag you wanna add.
Same here. I'd most definitely go through a lot of the graphics entries and tag them, I am commenting and voting for them constantly anyway.
The way of tagging as I described seems quite straight-forward and fast to me. But suggestions are always welcome! |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255 |
Here's another +1 for tags.
I would certainly spend time adding tags to releases I've been involved with, not to mention adding tags to releases I've found the hard way when it could have taken a second or two using tags, just to help the next guys out.
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
There are no cons. Period. |
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 424 |
There's just no argument against tags. They're a common household item these days.
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Sixx
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229 |
I tag along aswell.
//\\
\\
\\
/// (<-- TAG)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Quote:but you often seem to completely forget that the site is actually based on hundreds, if not thousands of people
you are a bit naive there. 99% of the work here is done by about 1% of the csdb users. (you know who you are)
and thats why unless *these* users speak up, there is little chance for tags (or anything else really) turn into something useful. and thats why i am against it - i'd rather spend my time on supporting this handful users that actually does something useful. (one of them already spoke up - not to your consent however) |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
but adding tags can't actually fail to be useful that's the point.
if nobody does anything with them, you are no worse off.
if ONE person does, you are better off than you started.
and so far SEVERAL people with a fair few releases between them have volunteered to tag their own and others stuff.
therefore CSDB is GUARANTEED to be better off already.
on to another negative point please this one has been busted. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
ah, another volunteer that will supervise and clean up the tags!
if you think adding a feature like this does not result in more work for the maintainers and moderators, because all it could possibly do is positive, then you are really more than naive.
"SEVERAL people with a fair few releases between them have volunteered to tag their own and others stuff."
and if you think any of them belongs to these 1% that actually do the bulk of work here, then you are also very naive. |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
well if you don't like doing the "work" you can always turn in your mod status!
and on from that happy thought...
exactly WHY would would tags need to be policed?
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
I volunteer to supervise and clean up the tags too.
Next excuse? |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
We are the 99%. Occupy CSDb! :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Quote:well if you don't like doing the "work" you can always turn in your mod status!
if you want a site with tags, make your own! yay! great arguments you got there.
Quote:exactly WHY would would tags need to be policed?
because idiots will be idiots and act like idiots. again: if you think this will only do good and cause no extra work, you are very naive.
Quote:I volunteer to supervise and clean up the tags too.
i could take this kind of comment seriously if it came from a person that spent any amount of time worth mentioning on the database. next. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: Quote:but you often seem to completely forget that the site is actually based on hundreds, if not thousands of people
you are a bit naive there. 99% of the work here is done by about 1% of the csdb users. (you know who you are)
and thats why unless *these* users speak up, there is little chance for tags (or anything else really) turn into something useful. and thats why i am against it - i'd rather spend my time on supporting this handful users that actually does something useful. (one of them already spoke up - not to your consent however)
By "based on hundreds of people", I meant that it is based on their work, the releases those people made. You wouldn't have a database to maintain without them, yet you still act like their presence is for granted.
And for the matter of speaking up, I've got a positive PM from a very active submitter (right from the top10). And it seems that you missed it when the #12 submitter spoke up in favor of the tags. Interestingly, you also skipped commenting the posts where some of us volunteered for filling up some of the releases with tags.
All that doesn't surprise me though, seems like you systematically ignore everything that doesn't suits your way of thinking, and keep bringing up the problems with the idea which we already found solutions for, or we explained why it shouldn't be a problem at all. This selective, ignorant, deliberate blindness is simply insulting and disrespectful. Especially towards those hard working individuals who help this site by popping out actual releases instead of pushing Db data from left to right. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Just as I thought, excuses =) |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Add me to the list of lazy useless non-contributors who think tags would be cool, please. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
If that 1% are already doing a good job of updating the database just take the existing DB and convert it to tags, then they can continue to do what they're doing with tags instead. All you need is a system similar to C64pixels eg a/ for artist c/ coder m/ musician y/ year etc etc then you've got a shit load of pre-made, pre-approved tags that already make the db a hell of a lot easier to search.
Being able to type all that in in 1 box when submitting would also be a hell of a lot easier than the current submission backwards and forwards shenanigans.
New release t/NEW DEMO c/DANE m/Hubbard a/Jailbird etc etc
I want to see all demos by c/oswald m/hubbard y/1992
The majority of work is for whoever codes it to come up with a system that's internally very complete but makes it as easy as possible for the end user.
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
yeah. so its a good thing that this isn't actually YOUR site Groepaz. Even though people could be forgiven for thinking it is.
remember when we asked for email notifications and PM previews?
I recall you said there was no point for THEM either.
Then Perff clocked the thread and said "what a good idea" and POOF! they appeared overnight.
so really guys, why are we arguing the toss with the organ grinders monkey? |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I find it interesting groepaz always only mentions WHY it wont work.
I'd be interested to know if he personally thinks the concept of tags is a bad idea in general
or just that they wont work because us CSDb users are a bunch of retarded lazy idiots (except for his precious 1% ofc).
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting StainlessI'd be interested to know if he personally thinks the concept of tags is a bad idea in general
Lemme help you by quoting him word by word: "I don't think it's useful". Ignorance is a bliss. |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
Quote: If that 1% are already doing a good job of updating the database just take the existing DB and convert it to tags, then they can continue to do what they're doing with tags instead. All you need is a system similar to C64pixels eg a/ for artist c/ coder m/ musician y/ year etc etc then you've got a shit load of pre-made, pre-approved tags that already make the db a hell of a lot easier to search.
Being able to type all that in in 1 box when submitting would also be a hell of a lot easier than the current submission backwards and forwards shenanigans.
New release t/NEW DEMO c/DANE m/Hubbard a/Jailbird etc etc
I want to see all demos by c/oswald m/hubbard y/1992
The majority of work is for whoever codes it to come up with a system that's internally very complete but makes it as easy as possible for the end user.
Hi! Yes, i am still for it, but the quote above to me is not a possitive but a negative. What i mean is the following:
New release t/NEW DEMO c/DANE m/Hubbard a/Jailbird
OK, who removes the tag new after six months. Why do the credits (which have been added through hard labour over the last 12 years) suddenly need to be in the tags.
I want to see all demos by c/oswald m/hubbard y/1992 >you can!, by simply using advanced search options.
Look 99% of the releases are 'tagged' by group, creators, with filetype, with credits, etc.etc. I think a tag system will be usefull for inputting Effect types, or subject matter. But the rest, no, I object.
A tag system will probably be faster then the way we add credits now (in my head it is), so i can see Groepaz' argument working about people just dumping anything in the tags to get it done qucikly. That is speaking from the point of view of Database intergrity, and to me, and probably to some others it is very important.
I also agree with Groepaz that some people who put in loads and loads of work (cba, ian, r242, violator, grenouille, wackee, fred, etc.etc.) in the past and in the future should have some words in this.
I still think a tag system is a nice thing to have, however the way it should be implemented, and how it should work in combination with out advanced search options is something that will need to be worked out.
Instead of all jumping on Groepaz because he is playing the 'bad-guy' really think about the system, how it should work, what should be in it, etc.etc. Like the things that Jailbird posted.
Nothing will be done without this all being thought through.
...and those were my pearls of wisdom :) |
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Cresh
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 354 |
If the whole idea of tagging files works fine on scenesites like for example http://artcity.bitfellas.org/ and http://c64pixels.com/main.php (whoever tags them) - why not try them in here.
Ok, I am also that bitch who comes here and demands stuff. Sorry. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
You've just misunderstood t/ ;) t/ = Title I just used NEW DEMO because I couldn't think of a demo name :P
The credits don't NEED to be in the tags, but to me it just means that the majority of the DB CAN be tags and is therefore more integrated.
c/oswald m/hubbard y/1992 + ifli plasma etc now where's the problem? If the data is there it shouldn't be separated. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
@Celtic: credits shouldn't be added to the tags as that would be an obvious overhead, but they wouldn't make a difference after all (except few kilobytes of extra storage). Tags would be used to label release details and specifics which couldn't be specified by the already present pre-defined categories. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
I don't see why credits is an overhead if the current ones are converted to tags though? Why now have 2 systems? To me that seems redundant. Why is Multicolour a tag but not STE'86?
It sounds like the proposal is to go to the advanced search, go through working out all of the mess that is THEN add some tags to search for as well? The advanced search might work but it certainly isn't very user friendly or obvious.
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
'Tags would be used to label release details and specifics which couldn't be specified by the already present pre-defined categories'
Perhaps a line which should be presented everytime someone adds tags to something.
@JCB: ok, my misunderstanding, but still my point was not mute. Database integrity.
Now, i would like to have imput on how this should work with searching, and the options we already have.
3..2..1.. go.. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote:It sounds like the proposal is to go to the advanced search, go through working out all of the mess that is THEN add some tags to search for as well? The advanced search might work but it certainly isn't very user friendly or obvious.
The advanced search isn't too hard to comprehend IMHO. And tags could be also added to the critera. So for example, you'd select "demos" made by "Oswald" before year "2000" with the tags "vector, record, tunnel" to get all the <2000 demos from Oswald with the specified tags. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Quote:This selective, ignorant, deliberate blindness is simply insulting and disrespectful. Especially towards those hard working individuals who help this site by popping out actual releases instead of pushing Db data from left to right.
you dont get extra weight by producing releases. csdb is not the scene. if you produce releases, you help the scene, not the database or the site.
Quote:I'd be interested to know if he personally thinks the concept of tags is a bad idea in general
or just that they wont work because us CSDb users are a bunch of retarded lazy idiots (except for his precious 1% ofc).
infact i think that the concept of tags are a great idea - in theory. i like to compare them with communism/socialism - which are also great ideas, in theory. and all of them fail for the same reason: individuals and their individual ways of thinking, individual needs, individual preferences. this again spawns the need for creating rules, and supervising things to make sure the rules are kept. or it will result in chaos. and i have yet to see a site that uses tags were chaos is not a problem.
and if you now read the last couple of posts, you can see how the chaos emerges right now =D |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting CelticNow, i would like to have imput on how this should work with searching, and the options we already have.
As for regular search in the sidebar, the best would be to add a "Tags" item to the dropdown above the search input field. And maybe allowing OR/AND operators there too, in case of more specific searches, f.e. "vector AND tunnel AND plotter" (all three tags must be present in order to get results) - but that would be just icing on the cake. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting Groepazinfact i think that the concept of tags are a great idea - in theory. i like to compare them with communism/socialism - which are also great ideas, in theory. and all of them fail for the same reason: individuals and their individual ways of thinking, individual needs, individual preferences. this again spawns the need for creating rules, and supervising things to make sure the rules are kept. or it will result in chaos. and i have yet to see a site that uses tags were chaos is not a problem.
And of course, once again you effectively ignore something we bring up as counterexamples: http://artcity.bitfellas.org and http://c64pixels.com/main.php where tags DO WORK. Really, like talking to a wall. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Quote:And of course, once again you effectively ignore something we bring up as counterexamples: http://artcity.bitfellas.org and http://c64pixels.com/main.php where tags DO WORK. Really, like talking to a wall.
i am not using bitfellas so i am not commenting that. c64pixels however has tags indeed - but not the way you propose them. on c64pixels there is a fixed number of tags and the pictures are tagged only by a selected few people. i would very much support that idea actually, because it effectively prevents most of the typical problems. you may ask veto about why he did it like this. (and somehow the fact that you didnt know that makes me think that you didnt really ever try to add a single tag to a picture there) |
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Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 427 |
You guys like talking your egos out. I like talking about the solutions.
So my 5 cents:
How about providing a cloud of predefined tags for the user to select from. No typing just clicking. AJAX calls (yes it' 2012). No submitting. You've just discovered and watched the demo right. Quickly click the tags: IFLI, PLOTS, FPP. Done.
And you can add your own tag, if let's say more than 5 people has added the same tag it will be added to the cloud. Simple. No moderation needed. Self regulating system.
A narrow group of moderators (that 1%) could have an option to click to remove them.
For a quick demo of how it works, sign up for delicious.com and bookmark a page, i.e. csdb (and no I am not their affiliate!)
Or just check out this demo and start typing anything... http://remysharp.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/tagging.php |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote:i am not using bitfellas so i am not commenting that. c64pixels however has tags indeed - but not the way you propose them. on c64pixels there is a fixed number of tags and the pictures are tagged only by a selected few people. i would very much support that idea actually, because it effectively prevents most of the typical problems. you may ask veto about why he did it like this. (and somehow the fact that you didnt know that makes me think that you didnt really ever try to add a single tag to a picture there)
I'm aware that on both of these sites tags are added by the moderators, but if that's your only concern, let's have a system where only a selected number of trusted people would be able to tag releases (or approve/dissaprove/moderate tags entered by the general userbase). Some of us would gladly volunteer to add and maintain tags. If anything gets fucked up, you'll even have who to blame by name. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
as said, i can see it working (only) this way. it must be made sure that tags are only used for the kind of info which isnt really suited for "real" database entries. for example if we had a "koala" tag, it should *not* replace the graphics-type/koala database field - but instead every entry whith this graphics type should be equivalent to every entry tagged as "koala" when it comes to searching/browsing.
at the end its all more a question of how the frontend interface works rather than if it is "tag based" or "classic database", for the most part IMHO. obviously the frontend could also simply silently convert the "koala" tag into "graphics-type/koala" each time a graphics release is tagged "koala" ... (and if i'd be more into php+sql i might have suggested that its time to finally think about csdb v2 again at this point... =P)
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting Gropeazas said, i can see it working (only) this way. it must be made sure that tags are only used for the kind of info which isnt really suited for "real" database entries. for example if we had a "koala" tag, it should *not* replace the graphics-type/koala database field - but instead every entry whith this graphics type should be equivalent to every entry tagged as "koala" when it comes to searching/browsing.
That's exactly how I thought about tags in the first place, so it's more than fine with me. Does this means that after all we settled on a solution which would suit both parties? I can't fucking believe it! :)
Dedicated users for tag-moderation will probably result in more work for Perff, though. So it would be great if he'd also state his opinion on this matter. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Quote:Dedicated users for tag-moderation will probably result in more work for Perff, though.
i'd just make that a trusted user feature (and have one or two more of them eventually). |
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
For a user interface implementation, I'd suggest grouping the tags by category and make them push on/off buttons, which are saved at the same time as the entry. They could still look like a text tag 'cloud' with some sort of colour, background or border? to show they are selected. The read-only view showing only those tags selected (obviously)
Maybe still offer a field for new tags which are moderated.
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Some ideas of how it could be done...
Minimal implementation: A textbox for each release where you can enter comma separated tags. The existing tags are listed with a checkbox for deletion. Everyone should be allowed to add and delete, like all other content.
Bonus features:
- Tags separated in categories like gfx, music, effects, other.
- "AJAX" interface with a small textbox for only one tag. When you start typing a list of suggestions appears below, which you can select. This helps getting more tags that are spelled the same way. When you have selected one, or finished typing, a new textbox appears for the next tag.
And tags should of course only be for info that isn't already represented in the DB. |
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cba
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 935 |
I am very pro TAGS, lets wait till Perff replies and see his thoughts about it. |
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
I'm pro tags.
Jailbird pretty much points out the benefits in the first post.
Tags could be used in other purposes of course.
Maybe I should start using delicious a bit more often if nothing happens... |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
Just a note that I'm aware of this thread, and the wish to add tags to CSDb.
I can see there are quite a lot of posts in this thread that I probably should read before commenting on this, so - I'll be back. :) |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1926 |
I don't completely object tags but wonder as to when clever people will figure it can be used as a substitute for e.g. Subtypes for tools? and being pretty sure that many of such tags will go unchecked...
I suppose at least some basic conventions regarding tag contents should be made.
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Let me raise my hand in favour of tags too. I'm not as active as I used to be these days, but WHEN I'm adding or checking stuff, I make sure stuff is done properly. That includes the future addition of tags, too. |
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Rex
Registered: Sep 2011
Posts: 14 |
+1 for tags.
I would love to be able to enter my notes about which effects are used in which demoes into CSDb.
Being able to search for specific stuff would be a great bonus down the road when enough tags had been entered.
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Kristian
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126 |
Sorry for bumping, but could we please have tags yet? Or have they already been implemented without me noticing? I would really, really love to be able to search for certain effects without having to look through every damn demo ever made to find them. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088 |
this being a database, and extra field we can organize stuff in would rock! you know, like tags ;)
I concur |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1088 |
edit:
this being a database and all, an extra field we can organize stuff in would rock! you know, like tags ;)
I concur |
