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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Holy Grails
I've been wondering about them, with some having been finally discovered, others not yet, and some probably going to remain in the realm of the impossible forever.
I'm speaking of things like:
- 320x200x16 graphics without restrictions
- Crash-free all-direction hardware scrolling
- Digi replay of 8-bit samples at one register write per sample and without requiring cycle accuracy
on standard vanilla hardware, of course.
Some examples of discovered grails are:
- Cube rotating at 50 fps about 3 axes
- The 9th sprite (with some restrictions)
- On-the-fly standard GCR block read+decode+checksumming
As for definition, they all satisfy some measure of being perfect or optimal or being possible after all, with no further improvements required, possible or necessary. But i'm not so sure if that definition holds water with regard to some of the examples i listed. :D
The question is, what other Holy Grails are there, already discovered or still elusive?
What are your pet grails you've been chasing after for decades or have found eventually? :) |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 478 |
And the incredible
- full screen AGSP !including the Linecrunch-area!
should definitely be added to the list of found grails. Did not take a closer look on how it works, but I guess making it cooperate with MC mode could also be somewhat hard.
Last (but not least), there are still some games that were initially done on cart for which no pure disk version exists (Prince of Persia comes to mind). But I guess this is not the type of grails that's been asked for here, right? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting Oswaldimho 8 bit digi replay was one of them, and got found I have it on good authority (Hi Algorithm!) that a method to replay 8-bit samples with one write per sample and without stable raster requirement has not yet been found. 8-bit samples have existed using the PWM method for a long time, but only Soundemon's method made them sound good. :)
And for NUFLI et al., what ptoing says. Maybe there's still some wiggle room between that and the holy grail.
Safe VSP, well, it comes with a lot of restrictions which make it pretty unfeasible.
Quoting Copyfault- full screen AGSP !including the Linecrunch-area Where was that? I seem to have missed this demo.
And a 64K disk version of Prince of Persia would pretty much qualify for a holy grail. :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
imho 8 bit PWM was like 256 (136) colors with interlace or dither. no1 ever took it seriously.
for me stable raster requirement doesnt cancels it, as a way to have 8 bit samples. Wonder why is it a deal breaker for you ? next up: side borders arent really removed until no stable timing is needed ? :P ;) |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Quoting KrillQuoting Oswaldimho 8 bit digi replay was one of them, and got found I have it on good authority (Hi Algorithm!) that a method to replay 8-bit samples with one write per sample and without stable raster requirement has not yet been found. 8-bit samples have existed using the PWM method for a long time, but only Soundemon's method made them sound good. :)
Mahoneys method does allow single write to d418 (as well as censors d404 method, but both these require translation to the required values to output unless the actual sample data is pre-encoded with the data from the tables. In some cases (e.g mixing) this is not feasible. Holy grail would be single write, less jitter sensitive and without translation table. (I guess 4bit d418 is one ($00-$0f)) but higher bit resolution would be nice :-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:imho 8 bit PWM was like 256 (136) colors with interlace or dither. no1 ever took it seriously.
the censor guys (and perhaps not only them) would probably disagree with that |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting Oswaldfor me stable raster requirement doesnt cancels it, as a way to have 8 bit samples. Wonder why is it a deal breaker for you ? What algorithm says. 8-bit samples are all fine and dandy, but they could be even better with easy mixing and no extra lookup etc., not to speak of more spare cycles for stuff, with less jitter sensitivity. Good < better <<< Holy Grail. :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting GroepazQuote:imho 8 bit PWM was like 256 (136) colors with interlace or dither. no1 ever took it seriously.
the censor guys (and perhaps not only them) would probably disagree with that Yes, it was pretty revolutionary for the time, i think.
Also technically, PWM cannot be compared to visual interlace/dither/error diffusion, as it can perfectly recreate an original PCM signal. Things like Super Audio CD existed. :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: Quoting Oswaldfor me stable raster requirement doesnt cancels it, as a way to have 8 bit samples. Wonder why is it a deal breaker for you ? What algorithm says. 8-bit samples are all fine and dandy, but they could be even better with easy mixing and no extra lookup etc., not to speak of more spare cycles for stuff, with less jitter sensitivity. Good < better <<< Holy Grail. :)
9 sprites needs stable irq AND only every 2nd line can be used, AND sprites can be only shown at VERY specific x AND y coordinates AND border has to be removed to show all sprites.
"8-bit samples are all fine and dandy, but they could be even better"
yeah but that 9 sprites, that routine cant be any better ! :)
AFAIK. PWM always has that high pitch whine != perfect recreation of original. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting Oswald9 sprites needs stable irq AND only every 2nd line can be used, AND sprites can be only shown at VERY specific x AND y coordinates AND border has to be removed to show all sprites. As i said in the initial post, the "definition" is somewhat loose, and YMMV.
Quoting OswaldAFAIK. PWM always has that high pitch whine != perfect recreation of original. 'The PWM sampling theorem[7] shows that PWM conversion can be perfect. The theorem states that "Any bandlimited baseband signal within ±0.637 can be represented by a pulsewidth modulation (PWM) waveform with unit amplitude. The number of pulses in the waveform is equal to the number of Nyquist samples and the peak constraint is independent of whether the waveform is two-level or three-level."'
"DSD is 1-bit, has a sampling rate of 2.8224 MHz, and makes use of noise shaping quantization techniques in order to push 1-bit quantization noise up to inaudible ultrasonic frequencies." |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
yes, definition is loose, and your list is highly subjective.
PWM, ofcourse I ment that int the context of c64 realisations. |
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