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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
What's downvoting...
Quoting Shine
"LOVE TO THE NEGATIVE DOWNVOTERS..."
Means what exactly?
Just curious, what is a downvote in your opinion, Knight Rider?
removed from Comments on
Excess ICC2021 4KB Intro
Feel free to lead (yet another) philosophical debate on the definition of downvoting here, but pretty please not in entry comments ffs
and behave...
*opens his umbrella for weather forecast tells me to expect shitstorm and heavy vote whining tears rains*
An example from some drama last summer: Voting a 2 on something with zero downloads (which means someone votes it lower than 10 without even downloading the file), now THAT's definetely downvoting in my book
PS: @the current release overly hard 5s are outweiged by overenthusiastic 10s pretty well currently imho |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 447 |
Fix the game, do not hate the players. After 20 years, the game still will not be fixed -> exploitation continues. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
@Mixer, well... no one claimed the matter's new, see
downvoting
but better discuss here than some release comments developing kinda flame war like.
Personally, I think, "downgrading CSDB" by taking away any wannabe-(anti)social-media-stuff such as "voting" would lead to meaniningfully less unneccessary drama (and being top 5 voter might be enough to assume I'm qualified to say so, poor Joe, of course). And I also suggest anyone who might beg to differ to try(!) if [censored myself, for my suggested alternative's not legal everywhere, so let's say: other hobbies] might help, but that's of course only my individual opinion
PS: And I keep saying so since what-feels-like-1974
PPS: And if some users are just here for the drama, they are gonna find other places on the I-Net (where bitching is intended) ;) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 659 |
Voting generally is borked on CSDb IMO. I know it has some clever algorithms for trying to stop downvoting/upvoting… but, hell, it doesn’t seem to work at all.
Take the most recent intro release:
Excess ICC2021 4KB Intro
Quite a nice spread of votes. Averages to 7.6.. but CSDB’s system gives it 8.5? I can’t see why it’s skewed the average so far upward … not to diss the intro, I’m just using this one as an example, but there’re plenty of 10s and 5s - so it doesn’t feel like obvious up or down voting..? Unless teams are whipping their members to vote (eg. All Excessive give 10s, all Laxitives give 5s?).
It just feels to me like a simpler calculation would make more sense - and I’d love to see what that would do to all the charts.
That said, I kinda want votes and charts to disappear from CSDb - but if they did, would there be an alternative? People like to have an easy way to browse good games, demos, intros, without have to wade through “less good” stuff. |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
Just switch off anon. Problem solved. Roaches hate light. Watch 'em scatter. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 659 |
Public voting has problems too… will you vote honestly about a good friend’s release if it sucks? |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3187 |
Quote: Public voting has problems too… will you vote honestly about a good friend’s release if it sucks?
I do, I don't care about anyone and my votes are public. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 462 |
Quote: Public voting has problems too… will you vote honestly about a good friend’s release if it sucks?
no. moreover, i wouldn't vote below 9 in 99,9% of cases deserving - it used to be 100% when my votes were public. even now, someone has to repeatedly, aggressively release shit (shit imho) to force me into voting 8 and lower. see, i don't want to hurt anyone, given that the scene CONSISTS of very touchy people, even if they pretend they don't care. i'm one of them ;) and that's understandable, feedback is all we have. |
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 323 |
that colour cycling effect in the scroller is nice (and grg's sids always rule)
Quoting Hate Bushit used to be 100% when my votes were public
I set mine to private after I had certain people complaining to me, or about me, because I voted a certain way.
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
Quoting Hate Bush... wouldn't vote below 9 in 99,9% of cases deserving - it used to be 100% when my votes were public. ...
Well, that's for sure what ppl might see as "upvoting"
Plus if everybody does so, we'd have only super releases (judging from vote results) which might arise the question why vote at all if everything is 9.5-9.9. Sh.. stays sh.., however, no matter the figures.
Quote: i don't want to hurt anyone, given that the scene CONSISTS of very touchy people, even if they pretend they don't care. i'm one of them ;) ...
Hehe, at least you're self-reflected and honest enough to see and admit that, that makes you at least one step ahead :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quote:aggressively release shit (shit imho) to force me into voting 8 and lower That weirdly non-linear scale with a strong bias to shit (in [1..10], "good" starts at... 9?) everybody keeps using may be part of the problem. =)
This is also a big thing when voting in ongoing compos.
Ideally one would sort the entries, give the best one a "10" and go down from there.
Hard to differentiate with just 2 slots before perceived downvoting occurs. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting TheRykwhich might arise the question why vote at all if everything is 9.5-9.9. Sh.. stays sh.., however, no matter the figures.
But aside from a few – most of the time even "shitty on purpose" – releases you don't see many shit releases nowadays. Even the "newbies" start at a very high level – just because of good documentation, awesome tools etc. See Chris Wemyss for example.
But BTT, my "definition" of downvoting:
Adjusting your vote until the outcome of the CSDb algorithm produces an average that is at least .1 lower than before.
As pointed out million times: if enough people vote, "downvoting" is not possible anymore. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
I love how after 20+ Years, threads like this are a thing.
The deleted comment is more valid than ever. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335 |
Oh, not that shit again xD |
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Viralbox
Registered: Nov 2021
Posts: 15 |
Who was quoting Shine? |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3187 |
Quote: Who was quoting Shine?
it's from the scrolltext in the excess intro in topic |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 447 |
Is vote score?
a) A school grade as a measure of skill? 1 bad, 10 great.
b) An opinion grade?. 1 dislike a lot. 5 indifferent. 10 like a lot.
c) A positive scale of liking? 1 likes just a bit, 10 likes very much, no negatives.
d) Just a scalar, so that CSDB is to be able to generate top lists and the ranking oriented can draw conclusions.
e) A statement: Hi creator of this product, I think of you, will you think of me too, please? |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting MixerIs vote score?
a) A school grade as a measure of skill? 1 bad, 10 great.
b) An opinion grade?. 1 dislike a lot. 5 indifferent. 10 like a lot.
c) A positive scale of liking? 1 likes just a bit, 10 likes very much, no negatives.
d) Just a scalar, so that CSDB is to be able to generate top lists and the ranking oriented can draw conclusions.
e) A statement: Hi creator of this product, I think of you, will you think of me too, please?
Mh. I think, mostly a) c) a) b)
– maybe a bit of d) and e) too :-P |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Isn't CSDb a database only? why are there votes? erm.. why is there forums even? :) |
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Street Tuff
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 88 |
Quote: Quoting MixerIs vote score?
a) A school grade as a measure of skill? 1 bad, 10 great.
b) An opinion grade?. 1 dislike a lot. 5 indifferent. 10 like a lot.
c) A positive scale of liking? 1 likes just a bit, 10 likes very much, no negatives.
d) Just a scalar, so that CSDB is to be able to generate top lists and the ranking oriented can draw conclusions.
e) A statement: Hi creator of this product, I think of you, will you think of me too, please?
Mh. I think, mostly a) c) a) b)
– maybe a bit of d) and e) too :-P
I like your ACAB attitude jan! |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
Quote: Isn't CSDb a database only? why are there votes? erm.. why is there forums even? :)
I ask myself this every day. :D |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 659 |
Quote: Isn't CSDb a database only? why are there votes? erm.. why is there forums even? :)
I did wonder that too.. maybe it could be just a database - and then allow other sites to tap into that (while paying a donation to CSDb) and have their own charts etc…
In theory I like that idea .. but, then, what about user registration and validation, forums like this, etc etc..? Could CSDB’s user database also carry over or be duplicated?
So.. in the end.. easiest to leave things as they are perhaps. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Quote: I did wonder that too.. maybe it could be just a database - and then allow other sites to tap into that (while paying a donation to CSDb) and have their own charts etc…
In theory I like that idea .. but, then, what about user registration and validation, forums like this, etc etc..? Could CSDB’s user database also carry over or be duplicated?
So.. in the end.. easiest to leave things as they are perhaps.
Don't think that would work, just like C64 releases, once they are "released", then they are out and about for anyone to grab them. What might work is to turn voting off, forums off, comments off and then just operate in the shadows of social media (where those wanting and are remaining anonymous can remain so). Hmm. I guess this has been discussed already. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
Nothing to See Here
8 years later and still relevant ;) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408 |
Jazzcat, Raistlin and hedning you are all welcome to ignore the forums and votes (either all of them or just the anonymous ones). Plenty of us find value in all of those things.
(and honestly, if you don't think the forums should be here, then why on earth are you posting in them?) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
Quote: Jazzcat, Raistlin and hedning you are all welcome to ignore the forums and votes (either all of them or just the anonymous ones). Plenty of us find value in all of those things.
(and honestly, if you don't think the forums should be here, then why on earth are you posting in them?)
Another road is to ignore the people caring too much about the voting, perhaps? /ignore on the whiners? |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Transparency: Openness and Accountability :)
Personally anonymous voting simply means i care more for the comments less for the votes.
As i have posted in the past, i would like to see a system that not only removes anonymity but also offers one option that amounts to vote + comment. No voting without commenting. No commenting without applying a vote. Comments must amount to 10 words or more. Only 1 comment allowed per user. To comment further would mean the user taking it to the forum.
No more comment from me with regards to this topic. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647 |
(If the CSDb forums are ever closed down, it would be super nice to first generate a huge PDF with all the contents, or something like that. In particular, it would be too bad to lose some of the information in those coding related discussions.) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
Quote: (If the CSDb forums are ever closed down, it would be super nice to first generate a huge PDF with all the contents, or something like that. In particular, it would be too bad to lose some of the information in those coding related discussions.)
I don't think you have to worry about the forums or comments... It's the voting that creates 80% of the drama, year after year. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 447 |
Lets say that the votes are public, and I vote 1 for your product. Will you:
a) accept that it is my opinion?
b) challenge the vote in the forums?
c) think that I am a dick?
d) whine about not getting unconditional love from everyone?
e) think that it is a hostile action toward your person?
f) think that it is not a fair exchange, since you gave my product a 10 in the past? |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
Quote: Lets say that the votes are public, and I vote 1 for your product. Will you:
a) accept that it is my opinion?
b) challenge the vote in the forums?
c) think that I am a dick?
d) whine about not getting unconditional love from everyone?
e) think that it is a hostile action toward your person?
f) think that it is not a fair exchange, since you gave my product a 10 in the past?
C of course :) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
The normal reaction here seems to be everything but a). and if the the vote is anonymous we mods are often asked to spend time investigating it and make something about it. |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
This is exactly what's to be expected from something anonymous on the internet, why this one feature is responsible for so much of the drama.
Like I said before - nuisance insects hate light - turn off anon and they'll scatter. |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Since anonymous voting is allowed, and unlikely to be fixed anytime soon, why not allow for anonymous comments to be allowed also?
This would suit those that want to be 100% anonymous. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 447 |
Anonymity is under attack because:
a) someone anonymous repeatedly expresses opinions against a government/business/ideology/demo group etc..
b) someone anonymous said/did/voted something that offends x.
And therefore:
c) "they" think, that "they" are entitled to know the participants and listen in because of x and health, safety and security.
d) "We" should know the culprits to be able to extort/threaten/bribe/re-educate them so that they agree with our facts! |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
If we're going to suggest that non-anonymity is oppression, let's allow non-registered users to vote and comment. Tell me why you'd object to that idea - and you'll be explaining the exact reasons why IMO anon voting is counter-productive. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
The core problem is that that there is both. Either have all votes public, and live with the fact that many wont give honest votes on stuff they dont like, or make all votes anonymous and live with the fact some will use that to "upvote" or "downvote" (whatever that ist). Having both however is a silly idea that should have never happened. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 447 |
@Six, consider my comments as a Socratic method of probing what lies underneath the views against and for anonymity, and or voting or reacting to votes in generally. Perhaps this discussion organizes some neurons or not. And Burglar is right, should have made that choice the default. :) |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
Aye, I got that, and FWIW I totally agree with that illustration in the context of larger civil societies where someone's life or liberty may be at stake. I was really just hoping there to illustrate the issue with inversion - If one thinks about what the entire site would be like if it were anon, it's easier to see the issue with anon voting.
Well, all that and I also would delight in seeing everyone turn on the fake friends who have been down-voting them - ESPECIALLY the worst offender if my tracking is accurate. |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 117 |
What was new to me as a CSDb newcomer a few years ago was that non-10 votes were often perceived as spiteful, and (pretty much like Adam) I remember being contacted by people shouting "How dare you?" etc. for 8-9s.
Anonymous voting provides a partial solution to this somewhat CSDb-specific "10-or-hate" mannerism (no pressure for all 10s anymore, right?), but at the same time it allows people to strategically manipulate/overcompensate votes without being recognized, which became a completely separate (yet valid!) issue.
I don't really agree with some points made by Burglar. I think it'd be difficult to justify 1-point vote without being intellectually dishonest in regards to production that presents respectable amount of skill solely because it didn't meet our personal taste.
Even though I strongly advocated for "all votes go public" solution in the past, I can also imagine the amount of community-specific drama as a result. Whether to call it entitlement or not is up to you. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
I'd just stop voting alltogether and delete all my past votes if they'd be public - as i dont have time to discuss whatever the fuck i voted for someones self proclaimed masterpiece. The amount of public whining about "downvoting" (referring to 7s...) is silly enough already |
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Frostbyte
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 182 |
Here's an idea: What if a vote would be accompanied with a mandatory comment? You could still choose if you want your actual vote to be public or not (I prefer to keep mine private as I don't want to give only 10s or not vote at all), but in order to vote, you must give some feedback to the maker(s) of the release to justify your vote.
This would:
a) Encourage people to give vocal feedback in the first place. If someone doesn't like my prod, rather than just receiving a blunt 1 or a strategic (more impactful considering the algorithm) 5 from them, I'd very much prefer to get some constructive feedback on what they didn't appreciate and what I could, according to them, do better. I know words can be hurtful, and most of us fiddling with 40 year old computers are probably somewhere on a spectrum and either can't form our words of constructive criticism in a polite way or can't take any criticism in a constructive manner, but maybe we just need practice. :) Also, I'm sure everyone would appreciate more positive feedback too. Sure, we all do this for ourselves... But we are still seeking acceptance from a group of likeminded people. Otherwise we wouldn't have a voting and commenting system, and long threads about what's wrong with them. :)
b) Very likely reduce the number of downvotes out of spite, because of compo/chart/whatever manipulation, group wars or whatever dumb reason we middle-aged, grown-up farts sharing the same geeky passion shouldn't even have to discuss about.
c) Allow admins to spot - and maybe even react on - deliberate downvoters. If someone consistently leaves comments like "great prod my friend, keep'em coming!" and gives much lower than average votes, something is amiss.
I'm sure there are caveats to this, for example some people will be less keen to vote as it'd be more involved than it is now, but IMHO the pros outweigh the cons. Thoughts? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Wishful thinking. Vote 1, post "cool!" - it happens already, doesnt solve anything. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting Frostbytec) Allow admins to spot - and maybe even react on - deliberate downvoters. The admins are very well aware of certain deliberate downvoters.
What would be somewhat cool is having admins react on a few worst offenders whenever bored or in a foul mood, and just silently expose their votes by setting the public flag. =) |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Quote: Quoting Frostbytec) Allow admins to spot - and maybe even react on - deliberate downvoters. The admins are very well aware of certain deliberate downvoters.
What would be somewhat cool is having admins react on a few worst offenders whenever bored or in a foul mood, and just silently expose their votes by setting the public flag. =)
What if the admins are some of the worst offenders?
/me hides. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:What would be somewhat cool is having admins react on a few worst offenders whenever bored or in a foul mood, and just silently expose their votes by setting the public flag. =)
or just randomize the votes on entries of those who keep whining about it? |
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Flex
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 111 |
..my first and most likely last words about CSDb voting:
Oh boy, times have changed and where have we come to...
Not more than just some 5 years ago you really had to put your absolute best into the table to achieve then very respectful 9 average.
Speaking on my half, that was one thing that kept me "hungry" pushing for better and better trying to strike that line of 9 for the first time. When I finally got there, it felt very rewarding.
In this context I find it a bit funny nowadays to see people give full points even for mediocre stuff and more funny to see these 10's being given by fellow groupmates. :-) I know the aim is to cheer and encourage, but I think we're on a wrong path when this happens.
I really don't want to see the real world phenomenon, the fear of hurt feelings land here at CSDb - especially if it's just a silly matter of giving votes that are considered "downvotes". If CSDb voting becomes a world of 9's and 10's, I know people mean good but then we're on our way to a sweet bubble that kills the hunger.
I'd like to see people being consistent(!) with their vote-range and voting behavior. What comes to the range, a pretty nice 7 should certainly not be considered a downvote. Unfortunately it seems to be the case nowadays which I think is wrong!
Personally, can't say good votes wouldn't cheer me up too, but in the end it really doesn't matter. In general I find voting is a good spice at CSDb but nothing beats the feedback. Comments - good or bad - are what really mean something. Instead of clicking a number, thank you for your time and thoughts.
Seeing "ill" voting behaviour makes me a bit sad and reduces my childish believe in the C64 scene of "good guys only". :-)
Enough said. Keep on voting! ;-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 659 |
What Flex said.
Right now, voting means nothing on most releases.. but.. without it, there’d be no charts at all - and I like the charts just as an easy way to find decent demos that I might not have seen before (I need to look somewhere down in the 100-200s to find those - but that’s easier still than trawling through 10,000s of demos). |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
Quote: without it, there’d be no charts at all - and I like the charts just as an easy way to find decent demos that I might not have seen before
That’s a valid point. To help users find good stuff is very useful. But again: it builds on people voting honestly. Maybe a better way of handling this mess is to see how Pouet is doing it. Seems to work pretty fine there. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
Quoting FlexIf CSDb voting becomes a world of 9's and 10's
Some years ago _I_ was often criticized for both too high/low public votes. Phrase I remember for upvote-whining was "10s come easy these days", definetely some truth in it, but criticizing upvote comes along with the same issues than downvote-whining (only it looks more arrogant and less pathetic) - either we don't want to allow votes or we do (<- in that case telling people HOW to vote is plain silly at the end of the day)
Quote:but in the end it really doesn't matter
full ack, only mods AND users are getting tired of the drama
Quote:good guys only
good one :D
Quoting Raistlincharts
As said before, go to diskmags for charts. Maybe we'll have more mags (or at least more mag readers) when the voting's gone?
Or - speaking about crack stats - some revolution about whatever stat score systems are out there? Current List would only tell us about mere quantities. Different matter, though, because cracks ain't have been voted for a lot, anyway, here. So if you want to pick a crack, you more often than not gotta decide to take a) your favourite group's release b) the one with the most features (+39 Trainers including change $D020) the smallest file to fit on your spread disk (kidding) d) the one with your fav intro e) etc. or f) read comments and flags |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
What Flex said. =)
Quoting KrillThat weirdly non-linear scale with a strong bias to shit (in [1..10], "good" starts at... 9?) everybody keeps using may be part of the problem. =) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335 |
I've been asked very recently why I voted on one compo prod 10 and other 9 (as you can guess, author of the 9 was pming me :P). I explained as well as I could what constitutes 10 in my book (and you probably know my scale is reeeeaaaallyyyyy biased upwards) but I died inside a little that I had to explain it in first place to guys in their 40s or 50s :( |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Quote: ..my first and most likely last words about CSDb voting:
Oh boy, times have changed and where have we come to...
Not more than just some 5 years ago you really had to put your absolute best into the table to achieve then very respectful 9 average.
Speaking on my half, that was one thing that kept me "hungry" pushing for better and better trying to strike that line of 9 for the first time. When I finally got there, it felt very rewarding.
In this context I find it a bit funny nowadays to see people give full points even for mediocre stuff and more funny to see these 10's being given by fellow groupmates. :-) I know the aim is to cheer and encourage, but I think we're on a wrong path when this happens.
I really don't want to see the real world phenomenon, the fear of hurt feelings land here at CSDb - especially if it's just a silly matter of giving votes that are considered "downvotes". If CSDb voting becomes a world of 9's and 10's, I know people mean good but then we're on our way to a sweet bubble that kills the hunger.
I'd like to see people being consistent(!) with their vote-range and voting behavior. What comes to the range, a pretty nice 7 should certainly not be considered a downvote. Unfortunately it seems to be the case nowadays which I think is wrong!
Personally, can't say good votes wouldn't cheer me up too, but in the end it really doesn't matter. In general I find voting is a good spice at CSDb but nothing beats the feedback. Comments - good or bad - are what really mean something. Instead of clicking a number, thank you for your time and thoughts.
Seeing "ill" voting behaviour makes me a bit sad and reduces my childish believe in the C64 scene of "good guys only". :-)
Enough said. Keep on voting! ;-)
Flex for president. Jammer, listen and learn! :D :P |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting JammerI've been asked very recently why I voted on one compo prod 10 and other 9 (as you can guess, author of the 9 was pming me :P). I explained as well as I could what constitutes 10 in my book (and you probably know my scale is reeeeaaaallyyyyy biased upwards) but I died inside a little that I had to explain it in first place to guys in their 40s or 50s :( Assuming the guy asked politely and in good faith, is that so bad?
Whenever somebody votes not-10 on any of my releases, i'd like to know what in their book is missing to make it a 10. Out of pure interest and some vestiges of ambition.
I never really asked, though, because it's not really that important, after all. =)
(This might be where votes tied to a comment with praise laced with some constructive criticism might be nice.) |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
Making charts in discmags is pointless nowadays as the mags do not have enough voters.
This surprise me a bit after reading all these discussions again and again about voting.
It still seems to be a big interest for some kind of charts :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Some people really need to understand that votes - if given honestly - will overall more likely settle in a normal distribution/bell curve than being biased to 10 like they expect. a 5 is still "ok", its not a downvote. very little deserves "10", because that is "excellent very hard to top and second to none".
As for pouet, it works better there because the like/neutral/dislike voting leaves much less room for discussion and drama. On the other had, many years ago i used to vote the same on csdb (1/5/10) and it caused plenty drama.
These days i only vote for the drama, because who cares really. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting GroepazSome people really need to understand that votes - if given honestly - will overall more likely settle in a normal distribution/bell curve than being biased to 10 like they expect. a 5 is still "ok", its not a downvote. very little deserves "10", because that is "excellent very hard to top and second to none". Yes, you're saying the same as Flex and i did. (I wouldn't go as far as assuming an actual normal distribution as the ideal there, though.)
So let's get back to actual downvoting. As in the 1, sometimes 2 when the rest of the votes cluster somewhere on the right of the scale. Sure the algorithm takes care of outliers to some extent, but... =) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
@Krill/interest in why not 10: Depends, if some noob asks how/what to improve next release, alright. But some half-experienced dude rated 6 or higher, playing vote inquisition, I'd say displays total lack of self-esteem. For often it's just personal taste, especially when it comes to gfx and music, taste can't always be explained.
Sure, you don't do stuff only for yourself but hope someone out there will like it (otherwise, releasing wouldn't make sense unless you want to annoy someone or everyone, also happens). But your own opinion should matter a lot more than what average or grumpy (all should be zero and life sucks anyway) or over-enthusiastic (even just some pile of crappy pixels or some fart sound is as excellent as pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows) CSDb user thinks - who might just have a bad hair day or no taste/clue or a lot of substances and couldn't refrain from voting something (which ain't mandatory, NOT voting IS an option, just btw...)
GPZ: However, even if the scale would only allow 9s and 10s or Likes, there'd be unpleased ppl. Debating particular votes (comments are a different matter) for me feels extremely like anti-social media overdone like "Follow me/Subscribe/Gimme a Like/Visit my Facebook Farm and water my flowers" or you are a misanthropist/troll/Philistine and need to be banned or jailed or worse/will hear from my lawyer... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Just give me a button to slap them with a trout. It works wonders :) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
just came to my mind: That South Park episode with dick size average publication leading to below average dudes freak out, solution, basically everything was declared above average :D
But I'm afraid telling everyone the average is 1.0 wouldn't do _here_ |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting TheRykFor often it's just personal taste, especially when it comes to gfx and music, taste can't always be explained.
[...]
and couldn't refrain from voting something (which ain't mandatory, NOT voting IS an option, just btw...) Personal taste is a perfectly acceptable answer (especially when it comes to ranking things in a compo).
But not all things are artistic and thus bound to random judgement.
Seeing certain votes on some of the tools i released made me scratch my head a little (not so much with demos, even the more technical ones). :)
And yes, not voting is an option indeed. If it's shit, ignore it and carry on. =) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Downvoting is obviously voting below the average. ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
But why would you not vote when you can get free drama? |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335 |
Quoting KrillAssuming the guy asked politely and in good faith, is that so bad?
Whenever somebody votes not-10 on any of my releases, i'd like to know what in their book is missing to make it a 10. Out of pure interest and some vestiges of ambition.
Very politely, hence I died only a little :D IMHO, the very need to ask this is kind of a problem. Should I ask about constructive criticism all the people who voted different than I anticipated or hoped for? ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Plot Twist: More than once when i actually bothered to write my honest (and imho constructive) criticism into the comments, one of the usual suspects pops up and babbles about grumpy sceners who cant appreciate anything. The only thing they achieve with that is: next time i will no more bother and just vote for the drama. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647 |
Extension of that plot twist: I once received vague threats because a person that I barely know (but was somehow associated with by the person who threatened me) said something negative about a production by a guy. Guilt by association. I didn't even say anything myself. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
<Post edited by moderator on 13/12-2021 15:02>
Quoting Groepaz
just vote for the drama.[/quote]So what about an "ignore votes by this user" flag? :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
That's an entirely different thing, Mr anonymous mod coward, AND YOU KNOW IT. :) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
<Post edited by TheRyk on 13/12-2021 15:04>
Sorry for misclicking, didn't mean to edit you, Krill
But How about s screen sticker with "Top Gfxian/Musician/Coder/Cracker/Megaswapper = <insert Usernick> (10.00)"
Just BTW my votes are anonymous since some skript kid hacked my settings, and I think they just stay this way :D |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Point was still another one. :) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
Yeah, but the result (clear my votes of Evil Groepaz or Stupid TheRyk for example) would really be "Pippi Langstrumpf" way (making/faking your own world/reality). And if you continue the idea it would result in "ignore everyone's vote but my own" (unless everyone agrees my shite is 10+) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Just ignore everything, problem solved |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting TheRykAnd if you continue the idea it would result in "ignore everyone's vote but my own" (unless everyone agrees my shite is 10+) If. Idea would be to just ignore the odd troll. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Which boils down to the exact same thing, obviously :) |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 117 |
Frantic, I think it's the donor status that makes people entitled to genie wishes. ;-) |
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Honcho
Registered: Apr 2020
Posts: 33 |
Quote: I've been asked very recently why I voted on one compo prod 10 and other 9 (as you can guess, author of the 9 was pming me :P). I explained as well as I could what constitutes 10 in my book (and you probably know my scale is reeeeaaaallyyyyy biased upwards) but I died inside a little that I had to explain it in first place to guys in their 40s or 50s :(
Hey, Jammer, let me jump in here as I'm the person (I think) you're referring to. I would have hoped you got it from what should have been a friendly question from one scener to another, but let me try and explain the intent of my PM as you raised it here.
I was simply seeking some feedback on the release and was curious about your thought process, I wasn't questioning the scoring or suggesting that you'd got it wrong, which I tried to explain (probably unsuccessfully) in my PM.
I had noticed a couple of 10s on some of the other releases so was just trying to establish what, in your book, I could do different next time. I had hoped it was a harmless question, but it clearly wasn't perceived as such and for that I sincerely apologise. You were one of the few public votes and we're connected and have exchanged messages on FB so thought it was OK if I reached out.
I'm a firm believer in continuous feedback and was just trying to understand what makes you say "Wow, love this one!" as I hadn't hit that mark this time around. If you don't ask for feedback you miss an opportunity to learn. It was all very well intended, and I apply that approach daily at work, both in terms of providing and seeking feedback from bosses, peers and from people in my own teams. It works.
Anyway, I wish you would have told me straight off the bat that you didn't appreciate the ask. I most certainly didn't want to kill a bit of you on the inside, what would we do without that positive spirit (and amazing music) of yours!
I guess I've learned something at the end even if it wasn't what I was initially looking for ;)
You take care my friend!! |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335 |
Believe me - you and all Atlantis guys rock enough already, regardless if I give a 9 or 10 for any single piece :D |
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Honcho
Registered: Apr 2020
Posts: 33 |
Was more the feedback (which you kindly provided) than the number itself I was asking about, but I now also know that perhaps the question needs to be framed differently and not land completely unannounced ;) |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Oum Le Dauphin [2sid]
Whoever voted 5/10 needs shooting |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
Quoting Wile CoyoteWhoever voted 5/10 needs shooting
Oum Le Dauphin [2sid]
Guess what, that vote comes from someone that posted in this very thread. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
So why do you hate the tune? |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
HA! I knew some smartass would come along and post that. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 659 |
Moloch: who? And how do you know?
That mods know who voted, despite votes being “anonymous”, is another problem on CSDb IMO. So votes are anonymous - but only to “the plebs” (to coin a term oft used by Boris Johnson and his ilk).
Also, the weird algorithm used… how can scores sometimes be skewed so heavily away from the simple average..? |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680 |
No one msgs me, they know I'd tell them to buzz off. Haha. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 462 |
Quote: Moloch: who? And how do you know?
That mods know who voted, despite votes being “anonymous”, is another problem on CSDb IMO. So votes are anonymous - but only to “the plebs” (to coin a term oft used by Boris Johnson and his ilk).
Also, the weird algorithm used… how can scores sometimes be skewed so heavily away from the simple average..?
agreed on both points. that sort of elitism is meh, the algorithm - which makes 7 a downvote - even more so.
make all votes anonymous! *puts up the flag, digs a trench* |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647 |
Well, you gotta have some sort of advantage if you help bear the burden of running this place.. ;)
God asks Hedning: Hedning, would you help out running CSDb, by being a mod?
Hedning responds: Not so sure about that. Seems like a lot of work. What's in it for me?
God says: Uhh.... uhm.. you get to see who the downvoters are?
Hedning says: Deal!! |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
I.. can... not... resist...
I need to bring up my awesome idea here, again.
Every forum member has a list of top 5 (or 10) per category.
Every now and then the website (or so) generates the charts from those lists. They could/should be public but if they were anonymous it limits the 'abuse' as well.
Also, there is no way anymore to identify particularly bad releases.
While 'worst 10' is fun, there is really no need for it.
(and even then, you could add personal worst 5 as well, etc...) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
Quoting Wile Oum Le Dauphin [2sid
Whoever voted 5/10 needs shooting
Maybe someone who has got only one SID or one ear and thus, hates the idea of Stereo and divided his upvote by 2?
Quoting RaistlinThat mods know who voted, despite votes being “anonymous”, is another problem on CSDb IMO. So votes are anonymous - but only to “the plebs”
The plebs shall eat cake!
Quoting FranticWell, you gotta have some sort of advantage if you help bear the burden of running this place.. ;)
Seriously, this ain't an advantage at all. It's far better not to know certain things, and I'm not speaking of ppl who vote on my stuff (I've never checked that, not even my scener rating - which is kinda overrated anyway) but of the rare occasions when people pointed Mods to hunt down downvoters - which btw only once happened last year and that case was really clear as the culprit's 2s flew in before anyone even could download the file...
To be honest, I mostly moved the comment to keep the entry comments clear of that discussion; I did NOT expect this thread to result in any clear definition. But I hope even the discussion illustrates how problematic it is that we currently have General behaviour rule I.6 stating something (downvoting) leads to ban though that 'something' isn't even possible to define...
@Enthusi: I like your suggestion! Not easy to implement, of course, but way smarter than the current situation. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
I'd even be very interessted in this information.
Like: Ah, The(mighty)Ryk considers those to be the true legends of c64 demo scene.
It would easily lead to learning about gems I may not have been aware of. It would also help the leverage of old demos vs new hyped ones (imo). |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:That mods know who voted, despite votes being “anonymous”, is another problem on CSDb IMO
But it makes them feel better for knowing something you dont - so that is a plus. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
+1 for lists of personal favourites =)
(Kinda reminds of Pouët's coup de cœur.) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Personal toplists would be way more interesting than "charts" based on the inflated votes, indeed. Of course it wont happen anytime soon :) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4723 |
Quote: Oum Le Dauphin [2sid]
Whoever voted 5/10 needs shooting
Drama Dolphin is old. Here we have the Downvote Dolphin! "Sorry to hurt your feelings, but I kinda voted lower than 10."? :D
 |
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celticdesign
Registered: Oct 2005
Posts: 149 |
Some of my Doh! thoughts:
- In total there are too less votes. With 100+ votes for each release downvoting shouldn't have that massive impact...
- Disabling "anonymous" = more fake accounts. I would even prefer having all votes anonymously (for better entertainment and drama!!!!).
- What about different/changed vote templates/views?
For example: Top 10 (as side note -- I would prefer top 20 lists) by amount of comments, amount of votes (in random views by 10,20,30,50 votes at minimum), Top category by year...
- Or do it in mainstream-style... Only allow likes/thumb up's and count them. :-) |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: Some of my Doh! thoughts:
- In total there are too less votes. With 100+ votes for each release downvoting shouldn't have that massive impact...
- Disabling "anonymous" = more fake accounts. I would even prefer having all votes anonymously (for better entertainment and drama!!!!).
- What about different/changed vote templates/views?
For example: Top 10 (as side note -- I would prefer top 20 lists) by amount of comments, amount of votes (in random views by 10,20,30,50 votes at minimum), Top category by year...
- Or do it in mainstream-style... Only allow likes/thumb up's and count them. :-)
:) |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1927 |
BTT - all of you!
LOLs back into a corner waiting for the final answer... |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3051 |
Quote: Personal toplists would be way more interesting than "charts" based on the inflated votes, indeed. Of course it wont happen anytime soon :)
I like the idea very much. |
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Dr. TerrorZ
Registered: Oct 2013
Posts: 14 |
I used to think that removing anonymity would help fix the “problem.” But I now doubt that, and the problem might not be there in the first place.
Often the amount of votes is just as telling as the votes itself. If a work is exceptionally good, it gets a huge amount of votes (50+) in the 9-10 territory and then any “downvoters” become statistically insignificant. So there votes are almost kind of “likes”.
In an ideal world people would vote more. Vote quicker and intuitively, if the number of votes gets high enough then it’s more “accurate” despite some outliers. If anonymity helps do that, then it could be better than a handful of over-rationalized votes by people who feel they are treading on eggshells.
So basically what celticdesign already said.
I’ve felt that if votes start to get personally annoying, it’s perhaps time to go offline for a while. Or make something more substantial next time.
My ten cents to the “ideas which will never be realized” hat:
-If the release has less than X votes, you are not shown ANY vote data, even if you have yourself voted. So your vote is not a reaction to previous votes.
-When the release has X or more votes, the vote data becomes public.
(X is some amount, probably higher than 8)
A hilarious idea:
-All releases have 10.0 weighted average by default and will be listed at the charts as such. Only by having X or more votes, the average will be recalculated. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
Thanks for all your postings and the overall civilized debate. Your valuable Input (also the offtopic ideas suggesting reforming the current vote system, some well-known ideas, some new ones)
However, nothing has been posted on the actual topic, anymore, for a while, hence it's *closed*. |
