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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Pinball Dreams discussion forum
Hey guys/girls,
instead of updating my homepage all the time, I though I could open a new thread here instead. This will also allow other ppl to comment on the development.
okay, so whassup at the moment?
Well, Last month I completely restarted from scratch on the code. Why? Well, first I wanted to concentrate more on getting the game to run in less memory, also I wanted to focus more on accurate simulation of the ball and some small other things...
What I have done till now :
1 - spawned the ball ;-)
2 - added gravity to the surroundings, the gravity data is now RLE encoded, so it doesn't take up much memory anymore. Used to eat 20 blocks of memory, now I think a map would use 3-4 blocks..
3 - I changed the gravity routine to use polar-based vectors instead of cartesean, much more accurate!
4 - added a debug mode to the movement routines, you're able to pick up the ball with the firebutton and move it around. Let go of the button and you drop it on the table again.
5 - Worked on an accurate (within 1 'bradian' degree) direction calculation routine. This routine will be used for both friction calculations and calculating new directions after collisions. So it needs to be
6 - added a (simple) friction routine.
7 - I put a small preview on the web ;-)
get it at http://www.interstyles.nl/pinball.rar
okay, what am I up to now?
1 - increase the speed accuracy to 24 bit, I need this because the friction only affects speed in the last 3 bits or so, so it's not accurate at all..
2 - add spin to the ball, so it is allowed to roll.. (also gives effect to the ball like top-spin and such)
3 - dunno yet, I'll see what is the next logical step after that.. probably the new method of collision detection, dunno..
I'm thinking of putting the sourcecode online as ascii file, so everyone can check it out...
Suggestions? Questions? other stuff?
greets, Werner
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Are there any keys (or something) to test scrolling yet? |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
Nice ball-movement.
Anybody ever tried to place the ball far to the upper border? The result is kind of funny (unlimited ball-acceleration). |
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Majikeyric
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 83 |
Great !!! I was thinking the project was aborted !!! :o) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
As for scrolling : It has been removed for now, but it's easy to add. All the necessary (REU) routines are ready, but as I was saying I'm trying to get it to run on a stock machine as well, so I'll have to add a linecrunch routine...
About the top border : the game only allows for a 64 char high table -> place the sprite in the upper border and it will read the gravity data from row 63,62.. etc, which are not defined yet :) only rows 0-24 (the top screen) is defined as to now... (IE - AFTER ADDING COLLISION DETECTION IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO GO IN THE TOP BORDER OFCOURSE :))
Werns |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
oh, btw, please don't mind the background 'picture' in the preview ;-) it was only meant to visualise the resulting gravity-force... about one minute work in photoshop and then some on my converter... |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Hello there!
Okay, preview is great anyway, so thanks!
Great to see, that developing goes on! :)
One question: How about NTSC & PAL compatibility?!
Thanks in advance!
All the best!
Bye!
Joerg |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
well, it will be PAL, dunno if ppl will want to convert to NTSC? also I don't know if NTSC has enough cycles/frame to do all necessary calculations, it might be necessary to drop some realism in a possible NTSC version.. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
I dare say that the majority of the active NTSC users today have SuperCPUs. Just enable 20 MHz mode in the border and switch back to 1 MHz mode in the first irq and NTSC users will have plenty of cycles to catch up.
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Also, if you do all critical (but fast) stuff in IRQs and heavy calculations in mainprogram, running out of time doesn't matter that much (just momentary slowdown) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
it runs either at 50fps or not at all.. I'll include a debug feature that will halt the game whenever all calcs cannot be done in one frame, and will write debug data to disk or something. This will allow me to see where speedups are in order. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
btw, what would you consider not-critical calculations? :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
"non critical" is everything that is not immediatly visible.... for example the actual scrolling _must_ be done each frame, else the screen goes jerky. the ball movement for example can be calculated taking a time-factor into consideration, so "frames" of ball-movement can be skipped when there is not enough time in current frame.... actually there are a lot of these kinda "non critical" calculations in a game, its just a little bit "different" to implement them this way. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
With doublebuffering, almost every main program task except color-RAM scrolling becomes not-critical. Basically, things that cause slowdown if they're missed, but won't cause outright ugliness onscreen, as raster interrupts keep things running. But this is just a different ideology, I won't lose my sleep if some frames are missed in some tight / action-full situations :) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
it doesn't help skipping frames when moving the ball. The ball movements all are traced, so calcs are done for each pixel position, to consider gravity + wall bounces and such.
If I skip the ball movement for one frame, I have to do double the amount of calculations, so it doesn't speed up anything..
also the flickering of the lights must be done instantly, otherwise you could have the top of a light and the bottom in a different color - UGLY.
also I have to play music and scroll each frame, otherwise things get jerky.
the only things not critical is score keeping and displaying it IMO
Werners
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Yeah, frameskipping on C64 mostly doesn't help, as the movement calculations are usually the heaviest (minus hardscrolling). In filled vectors it perhaps helps :)
According to my experiments, a missed frame of movement here or there doesn't feel that bad, *but* slowdown of music is something that's immediately noticeable, so one can't skip that, ever :)
Of course, if the game starts to skip like every second or third frame it will feel satanic :) I guess your CPU-load will be roughly the same on each frame? |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
cpu load goes up whenever the ball starts hitting walls. especially when it's in one of those ducts going from top to bottom it hits several times/frame... OUCH! |
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Intensity
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 337 |
Hey Werner,
I haven't got an answer from you in ages...
What about the Pnball Dreams Soundtrack? Has it overtaken someone else or is it still my job?
Yours,
Arman |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
wvl: you not only can, but you MUST design the way ball movement is calculated in a way that it can "skip frames" (to be more precise, it should calculate the movement over a given period of time). think of multiball for example. it took me some time to understand that aswell when i was doing the pinball engine for the gameboy... but its really the only way to avoid enormous peeks in processing time. however like you are saying yourself, collisions are the big nut to crack at this point, since these also must work in this context, which is not exactly easy to achive....however it _is_ doable :o)
the only "must be processed each frame under all circumstances" type of routines in your pinball engine should actually be the few things that display the playfield, do scrolling and alike.... even music is a candidate for beeing "frame skipped" if necessary. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Just wanted to tell you all I migrated from using TurboAss on the c64 to using 6502tass on pc. Finally I can have more comments then ever before :)
Also all my stuff is compiled, linked and put in a .d64 and autostarted with one press of the COMPILE button.. rullar :) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
a small update
I reworked the clipping engine, and cleaned up the sourcecode, which was really necessary. Looking at the last couple of dates on the post, I see I haven't been working too much on Pinball Dreams, which really is a shame :(
anyway, I got better ideas on the collision detection, which I will implement soon, for now have some fun with :
www.interstyles.nl/Main.txt <- "clean" pinball-engine sourcecode
www.interstyles.nl/Main2.prg <- compiled debug version of the engine, check out the clipping, which is done by cutting pixels out of the sprite, and not by putting things infront of it.
enjoy + l8rs
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Just wanted to mention I started on the new collision system. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Just finished the collision detection system :D |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Just wanted to let it be known that I put a new prv and the new sourcecode on the web. same urls as before.
what I finished : key detection system. currently left-shift,/,runstop,space and p are read from the keyboard. Maybe I'll have to add crsr-down too.
anyway, all keys are redefinable.
also I put a 'wall' in, and you can see the ball 'bounce' off it, not quite, as I still have to add the speed calculation routines after bouncing, and some other small stuff.. I also improved accuracy quite a bit.
Yours, Werner |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
certainly not the forum with the most activity ever ;-)
Just wanted to let all you guys now I'm now working hard on reflecting the ball from walls.. Also I solved a big part, so I can speed up multiple reflections in one frame a *lot*! I hope to put out a new prv this weekend, maybe with some graphics for the first time :D
also, maybe you guys can help me with something : I'm having problems trying to get in touch with Jailbird again.. I heard he's in somekinda trouble. Anybody know something more?! or how I can reach him?! |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
oh! btw I need some help :)
anybody have a good FAST AND ACCURATE way of dividing a 24 bit integer with a 8 bit integer? I want a 24 bit result..
8bit/8bit would also be ok, as long as the result is 16 bit.. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Good work, Werner, keep it up! I'm following every single step forward and have a peek at all your previews, can't wait too see the final game! :-) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
forget about the divide-request, I found a good way to change the calculation, I don't need it anymore.. made some advances in adding ballspin also... hopefully I can get the complete ball-reflection thing going this week, after which I'll add the spin-code to the source..
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
I've downloaded the latest preview but probly I'm too "slow" to understand how to interact with it. I only saw the ball rolling and none of the keys worked for me. Anyway keep writing progress updates here, it's interesting read.
roman
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
the keys are only read from the keyboard. You can see in the upper right corner if they are read or not. Just a tech-example ;-) Maybe there'll be a version with graphical clipping & bouncing this weekend.. right now the only way to interact with it is to use the joystick, can't remember what port... if you press fire, you can move to ball to any new position (I use this myself to debug the thing ;-)) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Removed a couple of MAJOR bugs from the sourcecode this week :) I mean _MAJOR_.. I couldn't believe it when I found them.. (ofcourse they were only stupid mistakes.. but alas..) This week I'll probably try to speed up the code a bit, already thought of a couple of ways. The wall-bouncing code is now about 90% ready, and is starting to look really good!!
Also a request : if someone has information about what happened to Jailbird, please let me know! |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Just removed even more bugs.. incredible how they manage to come out of nowhere :)
for your pleasure :
www.interstyles.nl/MAIN2.PRG a new preview, this time with some music and a wall! ;-)
www.interstyles.nl/MAIN.TXT the newest version of the sourcecode...
about this preview : do not bother yourself about how the ball 'hits' the edges of the wall (upperleft,upperright,etc..), this is caused by some table not being correct and me too lazy to fix it.. it's not an error of the code!
small edit : in case you were all wondering why the ball is attracted to the middle of the screen : this is easier for me to test, otherwise the ball would always drop off the screen :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Cool! |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
I hope your game goes well! :) |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
Funny watching the ball speeding up all time when it misses the bar in the middle but leaves the screen and returns on the other side (:
All in all very nice (especially with the right music in the background) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Ball leaving the screen?!! this should definately not happen :) how/what do you mean exactly? I never saw this? |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
Try to move the ball to the upper or lower border and let it roll.
I'll try it again soon and tell you what exactly i meant (: |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
OK, so you moved it _yourself_ in the upper or lower border! :) phew... right now there's only gravity data defined for the first 25 chars of the table, so if you move it too low/high it reads crappy data :) in the real pinball-table, it would be impossible to move the ball outside the normal screen ofcourse :) (thanks to walls :)
did you try putting the ball _in_ the wall? :) it behaves nicely, ie it doesn't move at all. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 465 |
WVL: Jailbird was hospitalized about 10 days ago. After spending three days in the hospital he felt better, yet still (to quote his girlfriend) "is in a very bad shape". I have no idea what exactly happened to him, guess you'll have to wait for him to recover. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
I just hope he's ok. If you can send a message to him : here's a get-well-soon from me! |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2589 |
Just wanted to wish you Good Luck for your project! I am really looking forward to playing a cool flipper on the C64!
Greetings & a good New Year 2004,
Bugjam |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
Any progresswithin the pd-project?Can we expect toseesomething new soon? |
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Oxbow
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 51 |
W, played pd on my snes emulator on the xbox.. Guess we can beat that version easily ;l.. Also, what about a PD combo at x2004!! |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
you mean a compo? :)) hmmm, well maybe ;D!!
anyway, still working on it slowly, tracking some more bugs in the collision detection... it's so compact written that it's kinda hard to follow what's going on exactly.
that's why I made a collision history some time ago, which remembers the positions, speeds, wallangles, etc for the last 1024 collisions, so I can track which ones are wrong... SIGH
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Oxbow
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 51 |
aehhhh.. compo it is!
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
btw, I thought we'd keep x2004 a secret for a while, but now it's too late ;) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
coming back on the errors in the collision routines : it's definately in the angle-calculation bit, not in the calculation from the new speeds from the old angle and old speeds or the calc of the new angle. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
and nailed it... one more bug down the drain :) |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
Nice (:
Guess it"s hard to keep x2004 a secret when it"s allready on the c64.sk partyscope.
I really look forward to that party as the last x-party was the first (and best (: ) party i have ever been.. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
erh.. how did that get there? Guess I'll have to spank someone (who first? Niels or Oxbow? bend over please!) |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
hard to believe there will be a new issue of xparty again. i hope the entry fee will not be too high like past years. don't wanna spend 50 euro or something for free beer and chats with the 'elite' |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
anyway, *if* pinball dreams is playable at X, we'll have a compo. And I promise to give away a nice prize for the winner :
A c64 with flipper buttons on the left and right side (arcade buttons, red), which work with Pinball Dreams. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Hey guys!
last nite I got an idea to make more colors possible on the ball, without costing more CPU power to calculate the sprites. It's quite a nice trick with priority. right now I made the ball in 2 colors, can be more but I think 2 is okay.
Also fixed one more bug in the collision routine.
check it out for yourselves :
http://www.interstyles.nl/MAIN.TXT <-sourcecode
http://www.interstyles.nl/MAIN2.PRG <-runable binary
next thing to do is to really finish the collision routine, which is now 90% done.
anyway, is someone interested in writing a detection-subroutine for the game?
it needs to detect the following stuff :
pal/ntsc
Action replay
Retro Replay
c128
REU
SCPU
emulator (I need this, because of the choice for the flipper keys, left-shift and right-shift can't be used on emulators!)
reu/ar/rr/c128 is no problem for me to write, but can someone give clues about a good emu/ntsc/scpu detector? (or give me some sources ;)
I want to use RR/AR/c128/REU/SCPU for storing the menucode/data, so I don't have to reload later on.
also I want to use REU/SCPU for scrolling, so those systems can have a bigger screen...
grtz Werner |
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
For NTSC detection just check if you can reach raster line $137 then your in PAL land.
Something like this.. (NTSC detection ripped from Sailor/TRIAD)
lda $d011
bmi *-3
lda $d011
bpl *-3
Loop:
lda $d012
cmp $d012
beq *-3
cmp #$37
beq onlypal
lda $d011
bmi loop
if you gotten here you're on ntsc..
onlypal:
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
HURRAH! ;) I could've thought of that myself, but how about detecting the 2 different NTSC-timings?
I remember there being 2, one with 64 and one with 65 cycles/raster. (65 is the most common?) Should one take care of both versions, or only the most common one? |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Also, I just uploaded the latest version, with the 100% collision and bouncing routine added...
can everyone please test this? if you see weird things happening, please reset, save mem $4200-$4a00 to a file, and send it to me with a small description of what went wrong...
http://www.interstyles.nl/MAIN2.PRG
http://www.interstyles.nl/MAIN.TXT
warning : the game will go into an endless loop if you position the ball with your joystick inside the wall. take special care at the edges!!! the wall table is made like the ball is square, not round (easy to fix, but work for nothing ;) You will see what I mean when (after the ball has settled on one of the walls, you move it along the wall). In the real game all this data will ofcourse be fixed, don't worry!!
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
hey WVL I just tested the routine and everything looks damn fine to me ;)
have you any idea when this project will be finished? it looks very promising alright! keep it up
cheers! |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
I don't know how to say it, but the movement of the ball looks too unnatural compared to a real pinball. It "feels" as if the ball consists of rubber gum rather than metal. And the acceleration is much too high when the ball comes very close to the wall, it gets attracted as if the wall is magnetic.
But this can probably be easily fixed or adjusted by fiddling with the gravity parameters.
Apart from that everything looks pretty nice so far, thumbs up! |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Quote: HURRAH! ;) I could've thought of that myself, but how about detecting the 2 different NTSC-timings?
I remember there being 2, one with 64 and one with 65 cycles/raster. (65 is the most common?) Should one take care of both versions, or only the most common one?
Don't bother with 64 cycle NTSC, the machines are rare and buggy - every active user over there uses C128s or newer C64s anyway.
As for SuperCPU detection, it's as simple as checking bit 7 in $D0BC. Take a look at Go64's SuperCPU tutorials for more info:
http://www.go64.de/english/scpu_e/ |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
Hejsan WVL,
made it crash. (Whole thing freezed, also had some biiiig frame-jumps (meaning the engine seemed to freeze after the ball hitting the bar in the middle at some very flat angle and then suddenly it was beamed to another place on the screen)
Where should i send the memory-capture too?
greets,
pi |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
mem snapshots to : pinball@interstyles.nl
as for the way the ball behaves, everything depends on parameters and tables right now so it all can be changed... but I won't do that until I have a real pinball table to try it in. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
btw, right now no more memdumps please ;) I already received 2 in my mailbox, and together with my own should have enough info to fix some bugs.. so please wait for the next test-version before sending in!
(already fixed 2 small bugs in the code thanx to the memdumps!! (which caused the freezing of the screen), but there's still the bug inside which 'teleports' the ball after a collision.. hmmmm..) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
I already put up a new version (same URL's as before), with a couple of bugs less.. there's still one left I know of, but you wouldn't notice (I guess, it's not really a bug, just something that's inaccurate a bit ;)
following stuff should be fixed :
- a bit faster routine
- no more freezing (unless you place the ball inside a wall with your joystick)
- the ball will now touch the wall if the ball is on the right of the wall, instead of having a one-pixel distance..
- no more 'teleporting' of the ball when it hits a wall under certain conditions (I HOPE)
- some more small bugs...
I also increased the size of the history, now runs from $4200-$6200. So if you run into something weird, send back this memory area, okay?
going to sleep now...
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
new version is available from the usual URL..
please test!
this version has had some more bugfixing, and has had the ball shooter added (which still has a bug in it ;))
also some other stuff, see the sourcecode for details.
edit : btw, can someone look at the 'detectmodel' subroutine and tell me why the AR/RR detection doesn't work?
question 2 : because of JB's real-life problems, I'm looking for someone to finish conversion of the bitmap-graphics for the game.. this is how far I've got myself (based on the first version by JB)
http://www.interstyles.nl/bitmap.gif
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
an update :
last weeks I've been working on the hardware scroller and some other things. You can check for yourself in the prv (same url).
there won't be an updated prv for some weeks, as I'm now working on some tools to help me with the final things I need to do on the bitmap/walls/collision data and such.
this will take some time ;) so don't worry if there's no update for some time |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
okay, coding went well yesterday. So instead of what I said yesterday, there is already a new preview out :) http://www.interstyles.nl/MAIN2.PRG
due to finishing some new parts of the tool, I could finally add the lights engine, and fix some small 'bugs' in the bitmap.
right now I only made the three "D I E" lights flash, but the others are just as simple. I won't add the other lights untill the bitmap is 100% finished, else I'm doing double work (and I'm lazy).
enjoy :)
I'm thinking a bit of what to do next. last things to do are : adding flippers, adding score display, make the collision maps..
edit : link to sourcecode : http://www.interstyles.nl/MAIN.TXT
link to the new toolset :
http://www.interstyles.nl/TOOL.PRG
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Big step forward! Kewl! |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
I want more collision maps, it's fun to watch the ball bounce around. And maybe you could make the joy button give the ball a random direction and speed? Loads of fun for easily amused people like me... :)
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
working on a tool to generate the collision maps...
hard work... so you'll have to wait a while longer ;) |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2589 |
Hi WVL,
could you please add a link on the insterstyles-mainsite to the downloadable files? I am using TheWave to browse the web and download stuff directly to my C128, but TheWave doesn´t automatically recognize if a link is a file, so it loads MAIN2.PRG as a website and tries to interpret as "HTML". If there is a link, I can use the download-function.
Thanks! I am eager to have a look!
Greets,
Bugjam |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
like this?
http://www.interstyles.nl/thewave.html |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
Quote: like this?
http://www.interstyles.nl/thewave.html
wow! looks pretty impressive so far.
keep it up dude! |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2589 |
Yes, exactly! Thanks a lot!
-Bugjam |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2589 |
One question came to my mind lately and I couldn´t think of an answer, as I don´t know the Amiga original: How does it work when you have multiball? I mean, which part of the screen is shown then?!? |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Dreams was the first in the series, it doesn't have multiball mode.
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MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
Looks promising, thumbs up! |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Dreams has no multiball.. also the engine is not made for it. to be exact : it's impossible to do in this engine :)
I think Fantasies had multiball, and it always showed the ball closest to the flippers. |
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Hurrican
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 10 |
No, Fantasies still didn't have Multiball, but Illusions had... :-)
And, yes, in Lowres it showed the ball closest to the paddles, but it would normally switch to hires (interlaced), where you could see almost all of the table at once. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
WVL: 2 - added gravity to the surroundings, the gravity data is now RLE encoded, so it doesn't take up much memory anymore. Used to eat 20 blocks of memory
What gravity data ?
Why don't you just code instead of using premade data ?
Or am I getting this the wrong way..
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
I'm guessing that the gravity data is used for the ramps and slopes on the table. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Mager is correct :) Gravity is always pointing down, but THE RESULTING FORCE (which depends on the slope of the table) is not... the map holds the resulting force, not really gravity... imagine the ball going up on one of the ramps : it will feel a higher resulting force on those places then on the normal pinball surface. etc. |
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RaveGuru
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 43 |
This looks very promising! Keep up the good work :)
RaveGuru / Instinct |
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AmiDog
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 97 |
Any progress made lately? |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
http://www.interstyles.nl/pd.d64
check out for yourselves |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
wow, looking great so far!
keep us informed |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
yeah very nice indeed!! :)
one thing, imho you should adjust the physics a bit, the movement feels like the ball were a ping-pong ball, make something to have it that heavy metal ball feel. It just bumps and hops sometimes too much here and there. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
@ oswald : I guess i have to remove some more energy after each collision ;) also some more tweaking is needed to make the feel better, but at least i can see now what's happening :)
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quote: http://www.interstyles.nl/pd.d64
check out for yourselves
Great.
Hope it will find a finishing result, no matter when.
Keep up the great work. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Oh yeah!!! (... and agrees with Oswald ;-) |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
That update of your project is looking great. Keep up the good work. We all would love to see this finished :) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
I did some quick hacking today and together with a bug-fixed collision tool we got this out of our hands :
the ball moves a bit smoother now and YOU CAN SHOOT THE BALL AWAY!! Also the collision-engine is a bit more memory-efficient (we saved 1.5 blocks) and the bitmap-scroller is sped-up quite a bit.
key to move the shooter-spring is crsr-down, but will become pound-sign in the next version (easier for me on my laptop ;) for testing). btw, you have to place the ball in the shooter duct with the joystick in port 2 yourselve to try..
if the engine freezes (ball getting stuck, still happens sometimes... tweaks needed ;) just reset and restart with sys8192.
same URL as before.
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
and i finally thought of not just releasing a prv or a peak at the sourcecode, but my whole dev-package..
http://www.interstyles.nl/dev.rar
also, i have some questions :
could someone check why my visible screen-area is only 161 lines?
I think it should be 200-8(bigger border)-25(linecrunching) = 167. So i'm missing 6!
ALSO KEEP IN MIND EVERYBODY IS INVITED TO SPIT THROUGH THE CODE/GFX/WHATEVER AND SUBMIT CONTRIBUTIONS!
keep in mind the tool to make the collision-data is done by jackasser, not me, and it is beer-ware. ;) You can find it in the \pd\tools\pd dir.
you can start it with 'java PD', if you have a java-runtime environment installed.
you can compile and run the game by starting compile.bat. Notice that this will only work on windows/dos machines and will try to start winvice to start the game. Make sure you have it point to your own vice directory.
Same goes for the pdtool, to edit the bitmaps.
regards, Werner
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Buhuhuhu, my Java tool is really bad written... :p Please don't flame me. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Jackassers tool only works without problems in 32bit screenmodes ;) i just thought i mention it :) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
some teaser images
http://www.interstyles.nl/2x1mask.gif
http://www.interstyles.nl/1x1mask.gif
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Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
That looks awesome. Me wanna have... mmm pinball... more...
DOH! |
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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 359 |
Hello WVL,
i always have the missing lines problem, when using fli grafics. If you switch the boder open and start the FLI three lines earlier with $d011=$38 instead of $3b, then you can display the whole 200 lines, but you have to do 20x(0<x<=7 i don't know exactly at the moment) lines FLI. I don't know the mechanism behind it, but it one of the first rasterlines seems to be more than 64 cycles long.
Perhaps this effect also occurs with linecrunching.
Greets Monte Carlos
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
The problem has been solved. Actually the was no magic other than waste of rasterlines. Maximum number of displayable lines are 200-8-25 i.e. 8 for hiding the finescrolling and 25 for hiding the piled up crunched lines. Atleast that was what my research concluded to. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
oh man.. so long without an update..
here goes :
-the new scroll routine is not in yet, but will be added some time after floppy
-same for the score-display routine
-physics & speed has improved a lot
-there's now collision detection between ball & flippers! but not 100% implemented yet (flipper is considered to be non-moving, so it's speed is not implemented yet -> results in ball getting stuck inside the flipper if you try to hit it)
-i activated the lower two bumpers above the flippers
some new teaser image with a possible charset :
http://www.interstyles.nl/fake1x1mask.gif
and the latest prv!
http://www.interstyles.nl/pd.d64
oh..
leftshift == leftflipper
/ == rightflipper
LIRA-key (pound-key) == shooter (in winvice it's mapped to INS)
joy2 == pick up ball and move it around
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devnull
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1 |
I am truly speechless man, that is fucking amazing...... |
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moz
Account closed
Registered: May 2006
Posts: 7 |
This may be a thicko question, but how do I get past the screen with the Griffin on it? |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: This may be a thicko question, but how do I get past the screen with the Griffin on it?
As far as I remember it is not linked yet.
Load seperately. ;) |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2589 |
Just had to push this thread up again. I am bursting of curiosity - any news? Pleeeaaase! ;-) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
A release on BFP perhaps? :) |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
what's the latest news on pinball dreams?
pretty pleeeease?
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363 |
Well, I guess the latest news is that i (finally!) started work on gfx for a new table. Super Android from Epic Pinball (original gfx by Pixel/Future Crew), not any of the Amiga pinballs... I'm still travelling atm, but i intend to pick up work on it when i get back!
I'm absolutely willing to do atleast one more table, maybe even a completely own design - now that the engine is working we should make as many tables as possible! ;-) WvL just needs to spice up the tools a bit to make gfx injection easier, hehe... |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Super Android is teh roxx0r! Looking forward to that! |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
roxxor! |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728 |
I want Elmo's Quest. |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Sticking with the 'I want..' theme.
Wouldn't it be great if an editor was coded that allowed users to create/design their own tables. |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
okay!
time for an update, please!
what's the latest news on pinball dreams? is it still in the making?
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Quote: okay!
time for an update, please!
what's the latest news on pinball dreams? is it still in the making?
Yes, but I havent done much.. |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
well I'm happy to hear it's still being worked on and I hope I'm not the only one :)
thanks for the info |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2589 |
Some time has passed since X2008 with the release of the marvellous Pearls for Pigs, the makers (esp. WVL :) have hopefully earned some well-deserved rest, so I am daring to give in to my nagging curiosity and push this thread up once more, in the hope of getting some positive news. Anything? :-) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Quote: Some time has passed since X2008 with the release of the marvellous Pearls for Pigs, the makers (esp. WVL :) have hopefully earned some well-deserved rest, so I am daring to give in to my nagging curiosity and push this thread up once more, in the hope of getting some positive news. Anything? :-)
I made some small progress a couple of weeks ago :) |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2589 |
Good to hear! :-) Small steps also get us closer to the goal. \o/ |
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AmiDog
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 97 |
Ping? |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728 |
Guess WVL is still in Peru somewhere. Perhaps not coding for the moment :). |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Pinball What?
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
I'm back on track and working on 2 tools to help me automate the whole process of changing things on the tables.
The tool I'm working right now prepares a bitmap from Timanthes by rearranging all the color attributes and dividing the bitmap up in parts ready for the game to use.
This way I now only have to pixel in Timanthes, save as prg and recompile and see the new bitmap in all it's glory in the game.
There's a couple of more stages that need to be automated to get this done completely though, the next step is to automate the filling of the empty places in the bitmap with collision data and I plan to tackle this next week.
All of this will make it a lot easier for me to work on the game, which I hope will bring the fun in doing it back ;) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Good work WVL! :) So all it took was an inspiration-injection from Mr. me? :) |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2589 |
Both thumbs up! Now THAT would be a release for X 2010! :-) |
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MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
Great to hear! :-) Looking forward to this! |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 496 |
Quote: Both thumbs up! Now THAT would be a release for X 2010! :-)
:( |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Right, i'm not going THAT fast.. forget about X2010. More say like X2020 maybe :) |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 255 |
Quoting JackAsserSo all it took was an inspiration-injection from Mr. me? :)
Yeah, I guess he felt very motivated by all the things you injected :_) |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2589 |
@WVL: Don´t feel pressured - it was more like a hopeful joke. I am just glad this game is being worked on. \o/ |
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saimo
Registered: Aug 2009
Posts: 36 |
WVL, I just wanted to give you encouragement for your nice project! Keep up the good work! |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2589 |
Thought it's time to nag a bit again. :-) Any chance for X12? Or no news at all atm? |
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Bago Zonde
Registered: Dec 2010
Posts: 29 |
Just awesome work! I was thinking about some project of scroll-screen pinball but for now I have other plans.
However I wish to became a betatester, it's just great job done for now!
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AmiDog
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 97 |
I was recently going through some old backup CDs of mine, and found an old copy of dev.rar, which reminded me that it's been a while since I last heard anything about Pinball Dreams... |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
ehr :D |
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Cresh
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 354 |
It will be released at X'2012.
No shit! |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
If released in 2012, it will be 20 years after the release of the original game. Then again, in 2022, it will be 30 years.... |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
But in 2056 it will be 64 years! |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
@Zyron: Wouldn't it be amazing if 10% of us could met in 2046, celebrating the 64th year of our beloved 64, talking about the 1000+ passed away sceners and playing Pinball Dreams which was just released! :) And of course 2% of us can have another meeting in 2056 to celebrate the 64th year of P.D. as well. :) |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440 |
Quote: @Zyron: Wouldn't it be amazing if 10% of us could met in 2046, celebrating the 64th year of our beloved 64, talking about the 1000+ passed away sceners and playing Pinball Dreams which was just released! :) And of course 2% of us can have another meeting in 2056 to celebrate the 64th year of P.D. as well. :)
In 2056 it will be a Knoeki one-man-show I guess.. |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Its been ages since the last update. The game seems almost there.
I know they were attempting to shave of bytes here an there, presumably to make room for the finishing code. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:The game seems almost there.
not quite... the engine is almost there. everything that makes it into an actual game (ie the boring parts) is still missing :) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
what groepaz said :) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quote:the engine is almost there. everything that makes it into an actual game (ie the boring parts) is still missing A common problem in games and other big projects. Also getting from "almost there" to "actually there" can be quite a long way. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: what groepaz said :)
We're a bit lazy unfortunatly. It's really my fault I think because WVL requested modifications to the editor, which I so far have failed to deliver. (Please PM me again regarding the specs). I could fix that AND and article for someone else during my daily train rides... |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
Relax, I'm just as lazy as you are :D
Will pm you again with the correct specs (if i can still remember it :D) |
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AmiDog
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 97 |
Someone just wrote "Pinball Dreams" in another thread, so I just had to ping this one... *runs and hides* |
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AmiDog
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 97 |
Ping! Any progress? |
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Rayne
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 30 |
I thought it was cancelled because 64k are not enough to hold all necessary contents in memory. |
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AmiDog
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 97 |
That's really sad if true. How about making the last/latest sources available somewhere? |
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Flavioweb
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 463 |
Should be developed for some crt like easyflash or similar... if the problem is to have more space for data... |
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Nith
Registered: Jan 2013
Posts: 15 |
Using a RAM expansion crt wouldn't help if you need to hold too much data in memory at the same time. You can't address more than 64KB and so the only way is to swap data segments between C64 and cartridge RAM afaik. |
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Flavioweb
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 463 |
I don't know exactly what kind of data needs to be fitted in 64k at same time, but if we have a "bank switchable" rom device, like EF, we can have all necessary data on rom and switch between banks -just in time- to use it... |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2589 |
Now we really have to hurry up - CPC is about to overtake:
http://www.indieretronews.com/2019/02/pinball-dreams-cpc-fantas..
!!!!1! :-) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335 |
Gotta say that - CPC pallette is definitely more suitable for this game :P |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Thin ice, Jammer, thin ice... :-P |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
Wow, the CPC palette... it’s how the C64 would look if someone punched you repeatedly in the face, so your eyes are swollen and bloody, right before you look at the screen.
C64 palette is the best 16 colour palette out there and I won’t hear any different. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732 |
Quote: Wow, the CPC palette... it’s how the C64 would look if someone punched you repeatedly in the face, so your eyes are swollen and bloody, right before you look at the screen.
C64 palette is the best 16 colour palette out there and I won’t hear any different.
+1 |
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 323 |
from the comments section:
the best? lol. imagine being this wrong? :) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335 |
CPC is surely the most underappreciated and undiscovered platform among 8bitters. All those years Amstrad ports sucked ass and suddenly, motherfucking boom - Batman Group. I respect it no matter what.
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=69651
Had my jaw dangerously low seeing that. Surely, it's for 128kb, but still.
And for fanboys - every 8bitter has great palette for certain purpose ;) Maybe except Speccy, unless you aim for perfect emulation of teletext xD Little Atari rules in that department anyway so I don't even understand why you care that much :P If only their gfx modes didn't suck cock :D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
not that much better really :) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335 |
My favourite fixed pallette is NES anyway :D Still, CPC seems right for Pinball Dreams port which was initial assumption, I believe, and escalated quickly into butthurt babble without more sense ;) |
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zzarko
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 77 |
"CPC is surely the most underappreciated and undiscovered platform among 8bitters." Then you maybe didn't hear about Enterprise 128... As with CPC, most games were straight ZX ports, without trying to use the machine capabilities. It has programmable graphics and sound chips, and, for example, Hungarian programmers coded for it ZX Spectrum and Amstrad CPC emulators that can load native ZX/CPC binary files (machine code games) and run them at (near) native speed. Emulation isn't perfect, about 15-20% games work nicely, but nevertheless impressive feat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tYUMWT6Fow
In past few years many CPC titles were converted to E128, I hope that would be the case for Pinball Dreams also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLaklSFPbO8
And I really hope that C64 port will be finished one day, as the preview version looks and works fantastic. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
c64 rules.
period. |
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zzarko
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 77 |
Heh, my first computer was C64 (and my only computer till 2004!) and it has a special place because of that, but now I have a rather colorful collection and I like all my machines (and before someone asks, yes, I even have CPC 464/664/6128 and ZX 48/128/+2/+3). Ok, maybe C64 a bit more than the rest... :) |
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AMB
Registered: Nov 2005
Posts: 15 |
Is it possible that this will be finnished one day? I wish I could help somehow, but I have zero coding skills... Hope somebody will take this project ON! Cheers! |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: Is it possible that this will be finnished one day? I wish I could help somehow, but I have zero coding skills... Hope somebody will take this project ON! Cheers!
Eventually.
It's boring code left, I.e. the game engine. The pinball physics is fully implemented. The game engine requires reverse engineering of the original game. What would help is any of these:
1) Get the original sources from DICE. (Pantaloon?)
2) Ask nicely if Batman Group is willing to share the game logic code.
3) Do a full reverse engineering like I did with Eye of the Beholder. |
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Golara
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2018
Posts: 212 |
Quote: Eventually.
It's boring code left, I.e. the game engine. The pinball physics is fully implemented. The game engine requires reverse engineering of the original game. What would help is any of these:
1) Get the original sources from DICE. (Pantaloon?)
2) Ask nicely if Batman Group is willing to share the game logic code.
3) Do a full reverse engineering like I did with Eye of the Beholder.
Rhino/BG said he's considering releasing the source code if enough people ask for it. He also stated there was no reverse engineering going on.
Quote:
@sim
Thanks!
We are doing it from scratch, without disassembling the original.
Still, I hope it's as fun to play in CPC as in Amiga!
Quote:
@sdsnatcher
Thank you!
At the moment it is not planned to publish the source code, but depending on how many people be interested it might be possible.
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: Rhino/BG said he's considering releasing the source code if enough people ask for it. He also stated there was no reverse engineering going on.
Quote:
@sim
Thanks!
We are doing it from scratch, without disassembling the original.
Still, I hope it's as fun to play in CPC as in Amiga!
Quote:
@sdsnatcher
Thank you!
At the moment it is not planned to publish the source code, but depending on how many people be interested it might be possible.
So, to get the correct bonuses, rules and scores etc they're just playing the game like mad and figure it out that way?!? |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
Or: looks like the original. All glory to the makers. Noone plays it in that version anyway :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
That is probably true indeed - it'll be enough if its playable and doesnt feel completely stupid. "Serious" players will play the original anyway :) |
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pepto
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2004
Posts: 35 |
Another interesting source for the Pinball Dreams scoring-system might be Vesa Halttunen (vesuri^daJormas), who spent some time working with the source code, as far as I know...
Quote:I completely rewrote the game in C++/OpenGL from the original 68000 assembler source code in 2009. The rewrite includes 100% exact original gameplay |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: Another interesting source for the Pinball Dreams scoring-system might be Vesa Halttunen (vesuri^daJormas), who spent some time working with the source code, as far as I know...
Quote:I completely rewrote the game in C++/OpenGL from the original 68000 assembler source code in 2009. The rewrite includes 100% exact original gameplay
Damn, didn't know about that. Really cool and sounds like a perfect source. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: That is probably true indeed - it'll be enough if its playable and doesnt feel completely stupid. "Serious" players will play the original anyway :)
Probably true, but also not so fun to code. It's much more fun to stay true when porting imho. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
The boring part isnt fun to code? Don't you say :) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: The boring part isnt fun to code? Don't you say :)
Well. There are various levels of hell. Coding game logic is boring. Coming up with it and make it balanced and fun is even more boring, hence I'd rather port it without thinking. |
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Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 437 |
Let "AI" play the original and synthesise the rules. Easy. |
