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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
New C64 Graphic /Audio Tricks
In the late 80's - mid 90's there was a huge flow of new inventions such as FLD, Sideborder removal, FLI etc etc.
What has happened now. Blocky Plasma's and 4x4 effects..
Maybe coders cannot find any more tricks from the machine?
The only person I am relying on now is Crossbow in Meet Crest (If it is ever released)
Does anyone know of any other graphic invention apart from the following
FLI
IFLI
X-FLI
UFLI
etc
etc |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
There is a site where you could read about c64 grafik formats, but i dont have the URL in my head, ask creamd he knows the URL.
Blocky plasmas and 4x4?
What demos demos have been watching lately? Look at the most popular demos from 2000-2003 and i am sure you wont see much of those blocky routines. For example watch.
deus ex machina
+h2k
soiled legacy
insomnia
royal arte
all triad+fairlight demos between those years.
and btw xfli was first shown in 2002 (digital magic by crest). The 4x4 routines where popular between 1994-2000 but nowadays have become out of fashion.
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
I think the difference today is that hardly anyone today name their effects with wicked abbverbations.
Just check the "interlaced-logo-strechter-thingy" in "Interruptus Retriggerus", new invention but no name. Also the latest FLT demo, Emanation Machine have effects never seen before. But without fancy names.
Or is it general opinion that trick is not the same as effect? That trick would relate to actually tricking the vic/sid into doing things that wouldnt be possible by default? |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
...and in that case, would using an old trick to accomplish something new be regarded as a new trick, a new effect or nothing new at all? |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728 |
Totally agree with Iopop.. I mean, *what* would you consider to be a *new* effect!? Is it when someone invents a new name for something, or is it when there's something on the screen which you haven't seen before?
It's the same for those *graphic inventions*.. It would be an easy thing to simply generate a bunch of more *graphic inventions*, using various known FLI-modes and placing out some sprites in various ways. But what is it really that you want!?!?
If you're not capable of seing all the new tricks that are shown in (at least some of) todays demos, you may as well keep relying on Meet Crest and die that way. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
oh yes, demos today are all 4x4 and blocky plasmas.
c64 sceners never cease to amaze me with their
ability to have no clue whatsoever about whats
going on.
ofcourse i could put some sprites on screen,
set some random graphicmode and hopefully
invent something new(has advanced-ecm been
done already?) but since most people are still
too busy sitting in a corner masturbating in
front of deus ex machina to notice i rather
do something else
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
the problem is that todays demos simply lack scrollers und because of this the coders can't boast about their effects anymore... :D |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Graham, and what are those sprite overlays with weird names like (examples invented): REALTIME PHONG, 256 FACEZ GLENZ SPHERE, DOOM CLONE ROUTINE (for those who don't recognise it from that 50x50 chunky pixel screen ;-) and similar?
;-))
btw. it would be cool to have overlay saying
2x2 SCROLLER!!!
;-))))
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
There are a lot of variations of existing effects combined with others. eg
Full screen bitmap (Sideborder sprites + bitmap) etc
Glenz vectors in sideborder.
But what I am looking for is vic trick advancements and not just a variation (such as UFLI,FLI,XFLI) with the latter being overlaid (or underlaid?) sprites.
The following innovative vic trickery would be as follows
5 sprites over full width IFLI (Demus interruptus)
Any more?? |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
so you only define the basics as "groundbreaking"... that's your fault really, because you can also do groundbreaking stuff on a higher level. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728 |
Hey.. Wake up. "UFLI,FLI,XFLI".. Let's just face the facts. FLI *is* a 'groundshaking' invention, yes. UFLI is roughly just FLI with sprites, so is XFLI. Get deeper into this shit, and you'll probably be able to distinguish between groundshaking and same-same-but-different effects. |
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Optic
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 28 |
Heh.. there was once a time, when nowadays simple things like DYSP, DYCP, different forms of scrollers, rastertricks and splitters were considered fresh 'n cool :P |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
Btw, the move to 4x4/8x8 effects wasnt done because
coders couldnt think up new things to do with Vic based
trickes.
If you look at when it started, its the same time C64
compos were integrated with PC and Amiga compos,
which mainly featured math effects.
Since it was mainly a PC crowd voting in compos,
C64 coders needed a way to 'impress' them with some
math & the only way to do it in reasonable speed (so
they thought back then) was to do it in very low
resolutions.
Thankfully this trend is nearly extinct now :)
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
Still i don't agree that 4x4 was done just to impress PC-sceners. Yes 4x4 was a new thing in 1994, but still in 1994 there were many demos which were released at c64-only parties and outside-compos.
Besides that i don't see anything wrong with 4x4 at a history point of view. It allowed ppl to do math-related rotines which was not possible in lower resolutions as you already said.
Thanx to 4x4 many great demos has been produced! |
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Spinball
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 88 |
and 4x4 is still a lot better then 8x8, wich was also used before graham came up with 4x4-fli. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728 |
..and Graham was not the first one who *came up* with 4x4. He was the first one to do a demo with it, but it was invented earlier by Wrath Designs.
Also i can imagine that he was first to do 4x4 with the fast-timing that was normally used since then. So what *is* the 4x4-invention? the gfx-mode itself or the timing that made it practically useful? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
I dont really understand all these disliking around the 4x4 mode. I think it was a necessary invention. Why should a c64 coder only think in vic tricks and rasters ? Tell me when was the last time a new REAL vic effect (trick) invented ? (and I dont talk about gfx modes) Why do you think its a bad thing that other platforms influenced our scene ? Imagine what kind of demos would you see on the c64 today without them. Still boring dycps, rastersplits, blah, blah, blah. The scene needed 4x4, so we could finally invent all those math effects known from other platforms, and what happened was a normal evolution IMHO. Sceners did effects wich seemed to be impossible until 4x4 come around. Now we make the same effects in hires, wich seemed to be impossible in the 4x4 era. Who the fuckin hell would dare to think in the eighties that we will have realtime texture mappers, phong shaders blah blah today ? NOONE! I think these things were over even the crazyest coders imagination! Now we have them, and without other platforms, without lowres modes we wont have them!
Btw, I have some unreleased effects, and I made them in 4x4. Why ? Because: its simply fuckin ultra impossible to do them in higher resolutions. So what should I do ? Stop coding since I can only make new things in 4x4 ? Or do you want to see 7 bouncing rastersplits + a cool fli pic with 500 sprites multiplexed over it ?
Should we stop inventing new stuff, since 4x4 sucks ?
We should have stopped by around 1990 then!!! |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
I totally agree with Oswald. There were a time, though, where all c64 demos were raped by too many (bad) 4x4 effects - so maybe that's where all the hostility against 4x4 is cummin from.
4x4 *can* be really cool, especially dithered 4x4. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
wd did sometimes combine 4x4 with bitmap gfx in a nice way.
most others did usually have the effect and nothing else on the screen, or at best a logo on the side.
i dont know why people are still whining about 4x4 and 8x8. there used to be demos filled with it for some time, now we dont see much demos at all. what do you prefer? |
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LordNikon
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 42 |
Hehe i know that some people dont think like me... but a dithered 8x8 can look very good... Just take a look on speccy demos. They only use dithered 4x4 and 8x8 and? The Speccycoders make the best math effects on the whole 8bit scene! ... (if you want to watch such a demo take a look at "dogma" -> www.zxdemo.org )
I like dithered 4x4 and 8x8... coders on the c64 should do more effects with this 2 modes! |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
I agree with Hollowman, Cyberbrain and Oswald.. |
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QuasaR
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 145 |
If mankind never left trees we even wouldn't have a C64 now... |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Regarding the Spectrum, The heavy advantage of that machine is its 3Mhz processor compared to less than 1Mhz for the C64. This would in theory make it faster for decompression / JPEG conversion etc. Although the C64's hardware is much more superior lifting the load from the CPU.
I must agree that 4x4 and 8x8 effects can be nice, but seeing it all the time (similar to seeing Vectors on Amiga) was a bit boring.
I remember the major breakthrough's such as Pictures in Sideborder, FLI, stretching effects etc. Coders kept on coming up with impressive combinations of all the above and more
But as soon as the 8x8 and 4x4 effects started, it was all a case of setting up this mode and then plotting to it.
Of course programmers proved that they are capable of doing maths / 3d based demo's by giving a texture mapped blocky spinning duck shape thingy. etc But a demo has to look and sound good. Its fine for a coder to demonstrate a doom routine in 4x4, but what does that show of the C64's capabilities?
Luckily 4x4 is gone now. Want to see more demo's like Dutch breeze, Krestology, Deus Ex machina, Parts, etc
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Dutch Breeze? I'd rather have some new 4x4 effects thank you.
And really, if you think 4x4 or 8x8 effects are so boring...were the old demos with the same old FLI/DYPP/DYCP/whatever routines over and over again really any better?
With some good design and innovative ideas, a demo with 4x4 or 8x8 effects can be just as cool as Elysion or Insomnia or Deus Ex Machina or whatever you consider to be a "good" demo this week. It shouldn't just be about the effects.
The main thing is, I'd personally rather see 10 new "blocky" demos in the next few months than no demos at all. Now stop complaining and start producing. |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
I guess its a matter of taste..
I can count on one hand (and have fingers left) the
number of demos which have GOOD LOOKING 4x4 effects.
Infact, the only one that comes immediately to mind is
Mathematica by Reflex.
And i'm not even talking about 8x8 which makes
me sit 3 meters from the monitor & still
not always understand what i'm supposed to
see...
The simple fact is, most effects that were done
in 4x4/8x8 years ago are done now in higher
resolutions.
Which means, that with some extra effort it could
have been done that way long ago, IMHO.
About Speccy demos, I've seen lots of those recently
and to tell the truth, their lowres mode looks
much worse that C64.. some demos were unbareable
to watch.
OH, and Mermaid, I hope your wish doesnt come true :)
I'll take one great VIC based demo over 10 lowres ones
any day of the week!
But I would like to see an increase in quantity
and quality of C64 demos.
Just my opinion.. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728 |
100% agree with Mermaid. Cut the crap and DO something instead!
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
about the speccy... their 4x4 mode is running on a bitmap screen like our hires (320x200) mode is. so the whole thing is drawn pixel by pixel by the cpu. and even this way their 3d and math effects are 2-3 times faster than ours... So we can eat our superior hardware :-P :)
the problem with 4x4 was IMHO, that there were a selection of effects overused a gazillion times. that made me puke aswell.
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
and if people will stick to effects that can be done
in higher resolutions we will soon be bored to death
by tunnels and bumpmappers..or we would be if there
were more demos released.
i've seen speccy demos combining bitmap gfx with chunky
effects in a really nice way, with hires gfx that kicks
all hires bitmap pics i've seen on c64. and if you like
doing "impossible" things, why not make some goodlooking 4x4 effects, if you think that all chunky effects suck, that should be a challenge for you.
and seriously, would anyone mind seeing another fts3
or mathematica?(no twoflower, you're not allowed to answer)
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Actually there hasn't really ever been invented any new gfx modes on the c64 since its realease in 1982 - it's all just a combination of char mode, bitmap, sprites, $3fff and raster colors... :) |
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Mihai
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 29 |
What about the SCPU? Do you have any new effects in mind for only the SCPU to make them possible? |
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LordNikon
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 42 |
http://www.zxdemo.org/item.php?id=2915
Thats the best example from a speccy which has hiresgrafics combined with some chunky effects in the background. Just look...
@Mihai: Imagine 3d Effects which use the SCPU... ;) Maybe 1x1 ;) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Tell you what, let's all convert Spectrum stuff to the C64... oh hang on, i did that already didn't i...? =-)
Why is everyone imagining SCPU demos, surely there are enough people banging on about how good that kit is to be coding demos on the thing? Even an average coder could produce something new, simply because that ground hasn't really been covered yet... |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
The SCPU is not a possible solution for anything.
The SCPU is the equivalent of trying to re-fit a VW Beetle into the shape of a Ferrari. It's 1) Not standard 2) A way to make the C-64 into some cheapass Amigaclone and 3) sucking. All you SCPU-isolationists; go Amiga instead - they're cheap these days - and you'll get a great tradition, an existing scene and you don't drag existing C-64 sceners off the right roads (eg. REAL C-64 production) and into something completely geek-moronic. And those operative systems and games for the new fantastic SCPU just give me the creeps.
And no, Hollowman, we don't want another Mathematica. We don't even want to experience such an event, and even less see or hear one. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Since everyone else has done an "AOL" post in this thread, i almost agree with Twoflower although i'd have been a bit more subtle about it... and i disagree about Mathematica but that's a difference in taste rather than anything else. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
congratulations twoflower,tmr und die anderen!
your wishes have come true, you wont see a new mathematica.
noone will do a demo like that again, and if there are
any other things in demos you dislike, you're lucky again,
because there is tons of stuff that is not being done
at the moment. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
hollowman you are right :) but I would love to know what things arent done at the moment, would you open our minds? Im serious. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
oswald, what i meant is that since there are few releases,
then there is probably not that many demos in production
(unless it's like one of those surpriseparties where
everyone are hiding in the dark, ready to shock you).
so if say, you dont like 4x4 textured cubes, then be
glad, because there are probably not that many of those
effects being done at the moment, which could possibly
destroy your day.
but i agree with twoflower about scpu. this is about c64,
nothing more, nothing less |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Re-read the post Hollow old chap, i *like* Mathematica and was disagreeing with Twoflower...? =-)
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
"Old chap"? What the hell was i talking about there?! i think there's blood in my caffeine stream...
Okay, expanded answer; i consider "Mathematica" to be a pivotal point in C64 demos, it managed to gel together very well and delivered a package that was bigger than the sum of it's parts in the same way that "Dutch Breeze", "Deus Ex Machina" or "Insomnia" (to pick random titles) do. If i could write something *that* good i'd be doing it, but sadly i've never been much more than an average coder so it's beyond my capabilites so instead i stick to doing what i enjoy.
Which is the crux of the matter i suspect, these days it's not about the one-upmanship of the scene of olde (unless we start talking Kefrens bars... =-) and *everybody* is doing the things they enjoy; i'm piddling around with character based effects because i've never done them before and i like the results, Hollowman or Puterman like being deep and meaningful and Graham or Crossbow just like watching other people vomit as they do the impossible. (A severe generalisation, i know, but hopefully funny... =-)
That's fine by me, whilst everybody is making demos they enjoy we all get something to watch. Not everybody'll like what gets released, Hollowman doesn't like most of my stuff, i don't like all of his either but i respect his right to have different tastes in the same way i'm sure he respects mine and any real support is good support even if it's not what some people want to see.
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Me, I like bunnies.
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
tmr, oh come on, just because i cant be bothered to read your posts properly doesnt mean i dont like your demos;) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
What, and i *do* read my posts?! =-) |
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Pantaloon
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 124 |
i like some 4x4 effects, as i do with some 8x8 effects and as i do with some 1x1 effects. i personally really don't care what techniques a demo uses just that it looks good. has the demo feeling and is somewhat technical impressive in my own eyes. There are probably plenty of stuff to invent on the c-64, perhaps not vic tricks but effects. |
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Dbug
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 5 |
Personally, I don't care which effects are used in a demo, as long as the whole thing is nice looking.
The feeling I hate the most is to have the impression to have lost my time downloading a demo and watching it ;)
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