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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Event id #2526 : Intro Creation Competition 2016
Sorry for skipping this event last year, but life is life and I simply would not have had the time to host this event in a proper way.
So finally X 2016 is over and the big productions are out. So maybe you are in the mood for a smaller project.
Competition runs from November 1st, 2016, until January 3rd, 2017. So you have a full 2 months to deliver your creations. This should be enough for an intro.
Please use this thread for questions, discussion and everything else concerning this competition.
THE RULES (same as in 2014, worked very well):
- Has to work on a plain stock C64 (PAL standard) without any extensions.
- Has to be a one-part intro. Fade-ins and fade-outs are OK.
- Has to contain at least one Logo at whatever size you like.
- Has to contain a changing or moving text message (e.g. scrolling text, different lines fading in & out, etc.)
- Has to contain music (not just a humming sound, please).
- Maximum RAM usage is $4000 bytes at one block, at whatever location you like. Screen RAM counts as used memory. Exclusions are system addresses like VIC (inkl. Color RAM), SID, CIA, Stack, Zero-page, IRQ vectors.
- Has to be interruptable any time by pressing SPACE-key (exception are fade-in and fade-out).
- Graphics, charsets and music do not need to be exclusive, but the code should be! So no reuse of existing code with just exchanged graphics and music.
- Intros may not have been used before entering the competition.
- Entries must be handed in as executable format startable with RUN (.prg or embedded in .t64 or .d64).
- Max. 3 entries per participant. Entries might be taken back from the compo until deadline. That means if you want to remove one of your works from the compo to make space for another entry from you, this can be done until deadline.
Deadline for entry submission is January 3rd, 2017 at 23:59:59 (11:59:59 pm) CET.
Voting closes at Sunday January 8th, 2017 at 23:59:59 (11:59:59 pm) CET.
Voting platform is CSDb (with all disadvantages it may have), therefore entries have to be posted here.
Entries will be ranked by weighted average of CSDb votes. Entries with the same weighted average are ranked by their percentages of 10s, 9s, etc.
No prices to win, just the fame. May the best creation win! |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
YES!!
thanks for organizing this event, Didi!!! |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
To Bob / Censor
Here is your 16 k compo that you suggested for x2016. :) |
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DKT
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 99 |
\o/ |
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Dr.j
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 277 |
Hi Didi !
great! thanks again for organizing this cool event bringing
some joy to a lot of us loving the good old days :)
it is possible to fetch the event also in the events bar (in the right side "upcoming event" ) i think a lot of ppl don't enter the forum to watch for the events. i didn't know about till Rock told me so. just my 5 cent thought. Good luck for all of you! |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
ICC 2016 is registered as an event but nearly pushed out of scope by other entries.
I was hoping there would be more entries already so the event would be more in focus. ;) |
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Dr.j
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 277 |
Didi , again i don't think most of the visitors
entering the forum. the best way to know about new events are from the "upcoming events" tab, therefore this is the reason
to believe for little entries . |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2594 |
Dr.j, I am not sure to which tab you are referring. If it is on the csdb start page, that is only for "recently added events" - so it can be an event from 20 years ago as well.
My suggestion would be rather to check good old c64.sk , which indeed has an overview bar on upcoming (and on currently running) events, on the left side. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
I have an entry, but isn't matching some of the rules yet. :)
Upcoming (but not currently running :() events can be configured on your personal settings page for the right bar. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Working on two entries. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
Didi, please add the following rule:
- entries by compo-killer Hein are no accepted, only mortals can compete for ICC 2016
thank-you! :) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
I shall publish my first serious attempt at coding too ;) |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
I'm in! |
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Angel of Death
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 211 |
I'm in too...
@ZeSmasher: We shouldn't because Mermaid would be out too. ;) |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
I guess I'm in too. And Hein entering doesn't faze me, makes it more interesting (and more work).
I don't want to do another "Focus" logo, so suggestions are welcome.
About the RAM usage, suppose I have an intro at $0801-$3fff, I can't generate speedcode at $8000? |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting CompyxAbout the RAM usage, suppose I have an intro at $0801-$3fff, I can't generate speedcode at $8000? Correct. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quote: I guess I'm in too. And Hein entering doesn't faze me, makes it more interesting (and more work).
I don't want to do another "Focus" logo, so suggestions are welcome.
About the RAM usage, suppose I have an intro at $0801-$3fff, I can't generate speedcode at $8000?
Don't you have some nice 257 char graphics by Sander at your disposal? :) |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
@Compyx: Range is full $4000 Byte. Last compo lot of intros used $ 4000-8000. |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
Quote: Don't you have some nice 257 char graphics by Sander at your disposal? :)
Yes, but that's not really intro stuff :) |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
Quote: @Compyx: Range is full $4000 Byte. Last compo lot of intros used $ 4000-8000.
OK, so only 16K, with access to the obvious stuff like zp, stack, tape buffer, I/O etc. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2266 |
Still think 16k is really too generous. But don't wanna bitch around now as rules are set for 2016. I make a wish for _next_ ICC to limit it to 4k or 8k. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quoting TheRykStill think 16k is really too generous. But don't wanna bitch around now as rules are set for 2016. I make a wish for _next_ ICC to limit it to 4k or 8k.
I don't agree with that and you'll see why ;) |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
TheRyk, smaller is more realistic for an intro, I agree.
But for a stand alone intro compo, a bit more makes for nicer results. |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
make an hires intro and generate speedcode d800-dc00
\O/ |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
4-bit speedcode sounds like a challenge... |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Quoting TheRykI make a wish for _next_ ICC to limit it to 4k or 8k.
Sorry, hope you don't get your wish. I need those 16k for distracting people with animations and fancy graphics so they don't notice the awful, awful code. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
How does
Quoting Didi@Compyx: Range is full $4000 Byte. Last compo lot of intros used $ 4000-8000.
fit with
Quote:- Entries must be handed in as executable format startable with RUN (.prg or embedded in .t64 or .d64).
?
Do we just pre-pad the PRG with 10sys16384 and ~12k of zeros, or do we need to load to $0801-$4801 and have a small routine that exchanges that area with the content of $4000 to $8000? |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Quoting Didi- Has to be interruptable any time by pressing SPACE-key (exception are fade-in and fade-out).
How much cleanup is required? Do we need to disable all interrupt sources and acknowledge any outstanding ones, or is SEI:RTS sufficient? |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quote: How does
Quoting Didi@Compyx: Range is full $4000 Byte. Last compo lot of intros used $ 4000-8000.
fit with
Quote:- Entries must be handed in as executable format startable with RUN (.prg or embedded in .t64 or .d64).
?
Do we just pre-pad the PRG with 10sys16384 and ~12k of zeros, or do we need to load to $0801-$4801 and have a small routine that exchanges that area with the content of $4000 to $8000?
It's not $4000 packed, but unpacked. I usually fill up the rest of the memory with zeros after depack, but I'm sure that's not even needed. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
- If the intro requires any places outside its $4000 bytes to be filled with zeros (see exceptions), it counts as used memory for data = disqualified.
- If tape buffer is used, it counts as used memory. Last time some used stack ($01xx) or $02xx area for data. They count as used memory as well if used outside their purpose.
- Just like Hein wrote: The allowed $4000 bytes are in unpacked format, packing it to be executable is OK and recommended.
- No special cleanup needed at exit. JMP $FCE2 is enough. In case of a later collection, cleanup of vectors and else is done in the surrounding code. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
"Outside their purpose" seems a bit vague. How about just allowing any use of $00-$1ff to make it simpler and avoid all kinds of bitter arguments? It's not like half a K makes a huge difference compared to 16K. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: "Outside their purpose" seems a bit vague. How about just allowing any use of $00-$1ff to make it simpler and avoid all kinds of bitter arguments? It's not like half a K makes a huge difference compared to 16K.
word! Also it does enable efficient Kefrens bars. :) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Zeropage is allready allowed. Else everyone who participated in the previous compo episodes is disqualified.
Someone using whole stack with clever SP usage should get bonus points instead of being disqualified, IMO. The addition of the "Outside their purpose" rule for the stack is a bit late, the compo has allready started. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Using stack with push/pull commands is in purpose. For storing data in there you could also use any other area, or am I wrong? I don't know about any advantages like zeropage has, but I may learn. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Kefrens bars it seems. Freshly pulled from the stack. |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
Wow, I've found this just as I'm planning to get back into intro coding for the first time in years ! I'm in :) |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Best of luck. My first intro is practically finished :) |
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Angel of Death
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 211 |
Still waiting for music and graphics from the other guys. (story of my coding-life :( ) |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Finally some more entries are dripping in. Was getting afraid. ;) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Heh, Vanja demotivated us with her compo killer. :) |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
Quote: Heh, Vanja demotivated us with her compo killer. :)
Must have have missed something. Which compo killer? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
let me guess not released yet but shown to Hein |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
The one with the 9.7/10.0 score. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Well, this is about fun, so no fear of big animals. ;) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
inc intro_count |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
Shine contributed an awesome PETSCII logo, Relaunch 64 is fired up, and I'm gonna spend all night coding my first intro ;) |
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Dr.j
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 277 |
good luck Slartibartfast! |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
Logo, colour split, music and proportional PETSCII font scroller implemented tonight :) Next is to generate an FPP from the PETSCII rom charset! :D
Oh, "my first intro" in a decade btw, not my actual first intro ;) |
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Dr.j
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 277 |
sorry for my lameness. FPP stand for ? |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
Flexible Pixel Position, or in this case Flexible PETSCII Position ;) It means every line of the FPP is independent and can be animated. I used an FPP in the 5th part of Out of Sight Out of Mind, my last c64 release back in the 90's ;)
Out of Sight.. ..Out of Mind
Oh I really liked your intro entry btw! Very nice! :D
I've started a c64 coding blog to catalogue my journey back into code ;) http://c64.inspired-digital.net |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
So, I've decided to code a VIC 20 intro as well, cos we're gonna do some VIC 20 cracks in future. Could I still enter it as like a "wildcard" entry? ;) |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
"Maximum RAM usage is $4000 bytes at one block"
Before or after packing? |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 691 |
In memory ram limit is kind of bullshit, should only be packed size. |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
Yeah in the real world it'd be packed size. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
The rules for this one are set and are quite clear.
Maximum RAM usage (so that's AFTER depack) may not be more than 16384 consecutive bytes, VIC/SID/CIA, stack, zero-page and IRQ-vectors not included.
You can debate about it, but that's useless. This is what it is and if you don't agree, don't participate.
Or participate and be disqualified, because hey, still another release. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quoting SlartibartfastYeah in the real world it'd be packed size.
In the real world, the rest of the RAM would be full of crunched game... =-) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quoting T.M.RIn the real world, the rest of the RAM would be full of crunched game... =-)
That's the thing ;) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quote: In memory ram limit is kind of bullshit, should only be packed size.
16k packed is also allowed. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting Hein16k packed is also allowed. As long as it's also 16K unpacked. 😊 |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11391 |
why dont you provide some prg that must be linked after the intro, that makes the while discussion void :) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
I suggest Oneder :) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quoting Groepazwhy dont you provide some prg that must be linked after the intro, that makes the while discussion void :)
That's a brilliant idea! Pity that came that late :P |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
Guess I'll be adding a lot of speedcode as the 'game'. :) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 691 |
Gonna be a boring compo. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quote: Gonna be a boring compo.
Without you it is.. *snif* |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
Fuck, my SSD boot drive failed, and took Windows and all my source codes with it. So I'll have to disassemble a 30% demo of my intro and start again. Lessons learned :P |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
So if I use $4000-$8000, relocating stuff to ZP is allowed? For example I move whole NMI handler to that area in runtime or generate short tables. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
I did for ICC 2014.. Hope it was allowed. :) |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Usage of zeropage is allowed. I usually use it for indirect adressing and/or variables, but if you want to use that small space for tables, feel free. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11391 |
zeropage allowed but stack is not? now that makes helluva lots of sense :) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
As long as the original 1st post can't be edited, both areas are free to use for any exotic purpose. |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
Stack is for lamers! :D |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Well, use stack and zeropage for whatever you want. ;)
My first own entry is nearly ready. Should pop up the next days. Hopefully I manage to do more. |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 495 |
I also started working on a routine. This single bank restriction is really fun to play with. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
You are not restricted to a single bank. The $4000 bytes may cross bank borders. |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Some really good stuff this year. Keep up the good work :) |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Still not living up to expectation. ;) Guess there are several WIP. Maybe after-christmas-time will bring up some more, when people have time to relax. ;) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
i've got ideas sketched out for one entry and hope to get a second together as well... Christmas is when i'll get the most time to code though! |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Same here, 1st intro is sort of done but resting (I may redo the graphics), 2nd is in technical POC stage. For sure I will submit at least 1 intro. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Probably the compo-killer killer. :D |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
So far, it doesn't look like a compo-killer killer. :) |
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Magic
Registered: Sep 2012
Posts: 44 |
@Hein: Most groups / coders are in X aftermath resting mode?
Still some of the top groups are missing ;) |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
I will be posting two cracktros soon, and a third before xmas :) |
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
Quote: Still not living up to expectation. ;) Guess there are several WIP. Maybe after-christmas-time will bring up some more, when people have time to relax. ;)
That seems to be kind of a rude comment to those who have already entered... |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Was meant as an encouragement for the ones who did not enter yet. ;) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2266 |
I thought "expectation" was not criticism of existing entries but rather meant referring to no. of entries as former compos achieved about 40-something entries.
Still, I guess, the remaining compo time will bring more!
Personally, faced some trouble due to f**ked-up Win7 system and change to Ubuntu. Not only lost some data, i.e. a few evenings of coding, but also had to learn a lot about new OS and build up a cross development environment.
However, now a GEdit/ACME/VICE/Exomizer combo is running, so it's not impossible that I'm gonna troll this compo with yet another MYD! crack intro to please our fans and annoy our haters xD |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
Oh fuck, I almost had one of my intros finished, but I needed room for a 1x2 font, so I attempted to relocate the whole intro into the second bank. And I've completely fucked up the data, gawd...
Start from scratch... |
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Scan
Registered: Dec 2015
Posts: 111 |
Quoting SlartibartfastFuck, my SSD boot drive failed, and took Windows and all my source codes with it. So I'll have to disassemble a 30% demo of my intro and start again. Lessons learned :P
Note to myself: Make regular backups
Quoting SlartibartfastOh fuck, I almost had one of my intros finished, but I needed room for a 1x2 font, so I attempted to relocate the whole intro into the second bank. And I've completely fucked up the data, gawd...
Start from scratch...
Note to myself: Install some kind of revision control system
I'm actually learning here a thing or two... ;) :P |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
Heheh, glad I could be of help ;) You'd think I would've learned something after my HDD crash last week, but no... |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255 |
Coding like it's 1988. \o/ |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2266 |
same here as mentioned above (loss of data due to fucking around with drive partitioning without updating beforehand, obviously I had forgotten my brain on the train or at work)
great to be still stupid after all these years :D |
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Scan
Registered: Dec 2015
Posts: 111 |
If it's any relief to you guys, I just managed to fuck up my sideborder scroller in one of my (premature) optimization rounds (premature optimizations are the root of all evil *grin*) and now I need to backtrack where I went wrong. I should have installed that revision control system by now... |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
i just work in a Dropbox directory and make a copy of the source before performing any drastic surgery; none of that means i'm immune from completely fucking things over once in a while but recovering from those mistakes is easier. =-)
(Also, code and graphics for one entry are now pretty much done and i have code for a "plan B" third entry if no other ideas present themselves. Yays! =-)
i just tried to use my Crimson hotkey combination to "assemble" this message rather than posting, perhaps i need a break... |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Yeah! More releases flowing in... keep 'em coming! :D |
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Scan
Registered: Dec 2015
Posts: 111 |
Working on it, working on it... ;) |
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Rudi
Registered: May 2010
Posts: 126 |
can use a non-released code? because it was meant for X-2016 demo, but didnt reach the deadline.
i can fit this into an intro instead. theres no point having the code laying around not doing anything. |
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Scan
Registered: Dec 2015
Posts: 111 |
Quote:- Graphics, charsets and music do not need to be exclusive, but the code should be! So no reuse of existing code with just exchanged graphics and music.
- Intros may not have been used before entering the competition.
I think you can, Rudi. Mine is a hodgepodge of things I've made earlier this year, but haven't released yet. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
I guess many coders have some kind of repository so many code is not "exclusive". Please don't use something already released and just alter it a bit (new music, new graphics and ready it is). I cannot really check that rule anyway, but it would be lame to do so. ;) |
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Rudi
Registered: May 2010
Posts: 126 |
great. maybe i'll manage not to screw up deadline this time. |
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Dr.j
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 277 |
repository is the new copy'n'paste ;) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
Contributed!
Let's hope I'll finish 64th. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Not even full 5 days to go to hand in your contribution.
Have 2 partly ready ones in the making myself. Hope to get them finished in time. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Extend deadline! :) Also working on a pile of spaghetti code here. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
My third entry is done bar the text, i'll have it done on the first. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
No deadline extension, you had 2 months. ;) |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
Why can this compo get so many entries and demo of the year not?
Didi: will you arrange doty 2017? |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Woot, only 5 days left. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Indeed. Can I stress it enough that there's no intro compo without Hein Design? ;) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting DwangiWhy can this compo get so many entries and demo of the year not? Probably because people see it as a bigger job to create a whole "demo" even though it isn't necessarily the case. Demo of the Year Competition 2013 had a decent amount of entries, but the weird timing of Demo of the Year Competition 2014 was probably to blame for people not caring. If there was one in 2017 where the deadline was actually in 2017, and there was time enough (like 3+ months) I would definitely be motivated. |
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DKT
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 99 |
Can I use memory $0400-$4400 (one block of $4000) for code+msx+gfx, zeropage and VIC/SID/ColorRAM/IRQVectors?
I will not touch $0200-$0400 and memory above $4400. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
in that case you'll be disqualified for 1 byte :) |
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DKT
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 99 |
Yeah I knew someone will catch it :).
I meant of course $43ff.
And to avoid more inaccuracies, I will touch for sure memory above $43ff because of VIC/SID/IRQVectors ;). |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
All OK with this setup. |
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Scan
Registered: Dec 2015
Posts: 111 |
I must say I'm impressed with the entries submitted so far. It feels good to see so much creativity and diversity in the intro's. Good work, people! |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
All current entries checked for the rules and entrants notified if something does not fit.
Less than 2 days to go to hand in new entries! Hurry up! |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
ikr |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
40 valid entries and still over one day to go. \o/ |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
24 hours to go!
Go! Go! Go! ;) |
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Scan
Registered: Dec 2015
Posts: 111 |
"Compile, compile, COMPILE, DAMMIT!" :D
 |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 495 |
I just sent my entry. Now i can rest for next 5 years... Well, at least 5 days would be nice. ;) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Just checking - I've tad under four and a half hours left, yes? |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Just under 8 hours to go according to my computations. |
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Pad
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 3 |
You guyses math. I could never keep up! |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Fucking time zones, how do they work.
I really should have just used vim for my music editor from the outset on this one too, instead of falling back on it late last night. Live and learn! |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 495 |
https://time.is/en/CET |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
Quote:Maximum RAM usage is $4000 bytes at one block This is a bit confusing. Maximum RAM usage, okay, but why in one block? As long as the linked program is in one piece (of max. ~$c000 bytes) after the intro has run, no problem, right?
Meaning that the intro may shuffle around data as much as it likes at run-time, if only to display various VIC-based effects with weirdo memory layouts. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Oh yeah!!! Deadline is over. What a lot of great entries! Knocks me off the socks!
Now check the entries and place your votes. Hopefully many users will vote. The more the better to get a fair result. Voting closes at Sunday January 8th, 2017 at 23:59:59 (11:59:59 pm) CET.
@Krill: Usually an intro will be linked infront of some other program, so it should leave the rest of the memory untouched for the other program. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
Quoting DidiUsually an intro will be linked infront of some other program, so it should leave the rest of the memory untouched for the other program. No. As i said, the intro may touch anything it likes, move program data around and put display or other data anywhere it likes, AS LONG AS it restores the original program blob after it has run. And yes, i've done that with some of my intros.
And yes yes, being linked in front of other programs is the very definition of "intro" aka introduction. |
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Scan
Registered: Dec 2015
Posts: 111 |
I interpreted the $4000 block rule as "$4000 consecutive bytes" just to be on the safe side. It's also easier for Didi to check whether an intro sticks to the rule(s). For that sole reason I've posted the output of the memory map of kick assembler as summary in my intro, to give the man some slack.
And to be honest, isn't it a tad late to complain about the rules when it's just 20 minutes past the deadline of the competition? You had a full 2 months of time to complain. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
I never intended to participate. I'm merely saying that such a rule is bonkers, because it doesn't make the slightest difference to the linked program and only limits what you can do in the intro. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
I actually like this limitation, since it means that you can't just do the usual FLI and speedcode tricks that are common in normal size-restricted categories, where it's only the file size that counts. I.e. it makes you think in new ways when you can only use 16K at runtime. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
But you CAN only use 16 KB at run-time, because the linked program is 48 KB no matter what. Just that there is exactly no reason to have those 16 KB all in one contiguous memory area. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
I'm with Cruzer on this one. Sure, the restriction's artificial (like everything else on this ancient platform), but that just makes for a new set of challenges.
I wanted a half screen of FLI for Scharf, so I had to write an offline allocator that would fit my tables in around the bits of VM that were actually in use, instead of my usual "graphics goes there, code+data goes here" approach. |
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Scan
Registered: Dec 2015
Posts: 111 |
I agree to that, for some effects proper alignment in various memory segments is required (thinkinh FPP here). And I agree, maybe the rules of memory usage could be stated clearer, but then again, most intro's so far followed the rule and the ones that went out of memory bounds were notified by Didi in time so they had a chance to correct their code.
Yet still, I don't see the reason why you should complain when you don't participate in the event.
That being said, I admire your work on your loader. ;) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
"Just that there is exactly no reason to have those 16 KB all in one contiguous memory area."
well there is, but that reason is "it's the in the rules for the competition"
Speaking of, currently revising my entry because i didn't realise I wasn't allowed to depack to d800 :-/ |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 251 |
Krill, what up? The limitations are the actual fun of it. I find them even pretty flexible because they're not saying like "well you got fixed mem up to $3fff". I find it quite reasonably set. And still, some managed to overstep :-) What i personally find far worse is the voting system. If it was me, i would make anonymous votes optional per production (set by the uploader/author). Hell if i get no public votes, what gives. But Trollvoting anonymously just to avoid revenge, thats just plain cowardish. :-D |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 251 |
And: no one hinders anyone from making a competition where you have to include a very large compressed file that you have to restore and jump into, after pressing space. That would actually be alot more helpful, since i am not sure that i could jump back to a working basic, for instance without requiring more space. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
Ah, anonymous voting, another pet peeve of mine. :)
But still, the rules are stricter than for actual intros for actual games, with that weird contiguous memory usage without touching the program blob. And the only way to really enforce that is to run an emulator and check all memory writes for illegal access. How sensible. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Krill: You're right of course, except that it would require that all participants linked the same 48K blob, which would make it harder to do a nice collection of the entries without taking up 4 times as many d64's. And I still like the limitation of 16K in one continuous area, since it means that I'm more impressed when people do something like what ChristopherJam did. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
ChristopherJam: The only sensible artificial rule is limiting executable size, as in space on disk (or wire, if your prefer). Anything else is pretty much given by Word of God, i.e., the limitations of the machine. Just my 2 cents. :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
Quoting Cruzerit would require that all participants linked the same 48K blob Why? 1. Intro starts 2. Intro moves arbitrary program parts to a backup area included in its 16K 3. Intro writes data to original location of backed up program parts 4. Intro runs 5. Space 6. Intro restores program by copying back data from backup area to original locations 7. Program is the same as before intro started 8. Intro runs program.
No reason to actually link anything, not to say the very same blob for every intro. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
Quoting ScanThat being said, I admire your work on your loader. ;) Thanks, but i hope you're also aware of all those demos (size-constrained or not) and intros i made throughout the years. :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
16kb was more of a challenge than I thought, in the very end I was hunting for 16 bytes here 8 bytes there. Had to sacrifice a lot of speed for memory. (bye bye super fast multiply with 2k table)
even with a 4k, or 1k you have the whole 64k to generate code / tables into, and for display. so in a way this is more restrictive. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Damn, have your share of tasty Snickers, sir ;) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
Quoting Oswald16kb was more of a challenge than I thought [...] so in a way this is more restrictive. It is. I'm still just saying that while limiting to 16 K (or whatever) is all fine and dandy, ALSO limiting to one contiguous chunk of memory is just nonsense. Over-restrictive, so to say. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
Quote: Quoting Oswald16kb was more of a challenge than I thought [...] so in a way this is more restrictive. It is. I'm still just saying that while limiting to 16 K (or whatever) is all fine and dandy, ALSO limiting to one contiguous chunk of memory is just nonsense. Over-restrictive, so to say.
yes you are right from a certain perspective, from another its opening up a can of worms, harder to check if entry complies to rules, probably some grey areas will pop up too. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
It's easier to check compliance with fewer rules, in fact. In this case, link 48K blob and see if it works after pressing space, done. Additionally checking if intro sneakily moves around memory and restores original 48K blob afterwards is more effort, as stated above.
And well, i have limited myself to this weird technical restriction. Didn't rant about "logo + scroller" and so, which in my opinion also imposes needless restrictions on design and originality. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quoting KrillDidn't rant about "logo + scroller" and so, which in my opinion also imposes needless restrictions on design and originality.
Judging from some releases, it imposed nothing ;) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
so... compo is over. it's amazing to see a lot of entries. They are all ranged from "good intro" to "fab "intro", with no "average intro" and no "bad intro"!
a great quality compo - thanx Didi for organizing it!!
there's just a thing I didn't like that much... IMHO there are too many v1/v2 intros, which caused some confusion, especially in the voting process.
Didi, please add a rule to avoid or limit that for ICC2017! :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11391 |
Quote:link 48K blob and see if it works after pressing space, done.
this. (i'd go further and use an even bigger blob - because intros shouldnt be that big) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Agreed, the quality of the compo is increasing each episode. Thanks for organizing, Didi.
Voting is funny anyway, with or without v2. I have 2 entries, ranked opposite to my personal preference. Should make a trolltro about it next time. |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 495 |
Thank you for such a nice compo Didi. This is taken by me at supermarket today. :)
 |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Yeah, great compo, thanks Didi! :)
While we're at it, don't forget to check out this Hungarian classic called "Give me the didi":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAlplWO8H6Q |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 455 |
Just finished browsing through the entries. So many! 55 or more of you have spent perhaps a day at least working with a production for the compo. Many man months of effort. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
dont forget this one (check out that t-shirt) :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7-YyghdmzU |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2266 |
Quote: so... compo is over. it's amazing to see a lot of entries. They are all ranged from "good intro" to "fab "intro", with no "average intro" and no "bad intro"!
a great quality compo - thanx Didi for organizing it!!
there's just a thing I didn't like that much... IMHO there are too many v1/v2 intros, which caused some confusion, especially in the voting process.
Didi, please add a rule to avoid or limit that for ICC2017! :)
Zmasher totally nailed it, i.e. _IF_ you take voting overly seriously.
But: Just forget about darn voting. I finally released a V2 knowing perfectly well it would cost me a few places, but in the end, seeing one of my entries as it should be was more important to me than whether to be on side A or B or #42 or #43 :D
Of course I understand if the really good groups and sceners who are longing for fame (not people like me who just bang their heads on the keyboard until the intro is done) are critizising the vote system; of course there are better ways than CSDb votes including all ze anonymous downvote and unanonymous upvote drama. But ze rules was clear from the beginning.
Like Hein, Mixer and others already said in other words: Let's just be glad or even a little proud of what scene (as a community! fucking around with 8 bit stuff as a hobby!) was capable of doing within a few months in an X year, and let me finish with stating quality and quantity are a blast! |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
Hey ZeRyk, happy new year!
I personally could not care less about voting/ranks/etc. In a previous post I wished to finish #64, which now seems to be impossible as there are not so many entries... so mission failed! :)
however, generally speaking, I think that if a prg enters the compo at day1, it gets 50 votes, then hours before the deadline a v2 is released just to fix a slight glitch, well I can understand and I do appreciate the perfectionism, but all those votes are somehow wasted.
possible solutions:
- when a v2 is released all votes are moved from v1
- (I know this is not possible with CSDb) nobody can vote on ICC before the deadline |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 495 |
@ZeSmasher: Simple solution is to make a seperate compo page and submit entries there. Right after compo deadline, organizer(s) will upload all entries to CSDb. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
it would be better to reveal all entries at once. its nicer to check out new stuff at once. opening presents for motnhs is boring. and that would get rid of V2s aswell. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
I stick to the imperfect CSDb system (which was not made for such purpose) because it has the needed attention and is easy to use. Any "better" solution outside resulted in less attention and participation. CSDb is, like it or not, a central point where the c64 scene gathers and therefore the best place to run an online c64 compo. I guess the success speaks for itself. |
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Scan
Registered: Dec 2015
Posts: 111 |
Can't agree more with the TheRyk's comment. Take the votes with a grain of salt but the comments to heart. People giving feedback on what they like or dislike in your production is much more valuable. And the most important thing is that you still have fun in creating stuff for an archaic platform, and that there still is a select group of people appreciating your efforts. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
The only thing I'd change would be to add an NTSC compatibility requrement ;)
Seriously though, if you're unhappy with the rules there's nothing stopping you from organising your own compo with your own set of rules.
So many amazing intros this time! Thank you for organising it, Didi, and thank you to all who made intros. Opening presents for months has been great! <3 |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732 |
Only thing I think is bad here are the anonymous downvoters (I mean: 1 on Hein's intro and Oxyron's? wtf) which only serve one purpose: to manipulate the results. Buy hey, here we are, and everyone complaining are most welcome to organise their own compo with different rules. :)
Great compo, Didi! So much awesome. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11391 |
Quote:add an NTSC compatibility requrement
yes! |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
To whoever gave Oxyron's entry and Hein's second entry a 1:
I see you didn't give mine a 1, and I absolutely hate the thought that you are downvoting others in an attempt to manipulate the results in my favour. Could you please delete your 1 votes? :( |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Fufuufuuu! Anonymous Downvote Cowards are strong in this compo. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
About NTSC requirement - I'd probably not finish my intro in that case. Rastertime was too tight to do any checkings or my skill too lame given rastertime wasn't too tight :( Hence I don't fully support it. Still, introducing NTSC fixing as a compo rule would be logical, of course ;)
I'm for bringing Intro Med Vurst back into the compo! Didi's decision in that case was really subjective, arbitary and unfair. |
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Flavioweb
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 466 |
Should consider only "Public Votes" for the charts...
In this way we will cut off all Anonymous Down/Upvote Cowards.
Just my 2 cents... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11391 |
And there it is: the first "anonymous votings are bad" thread of 2017! |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quoting FlaviowebShould consider only "Public Votes" for the charts...
Would be perfect in theory but for some more overlooked intros it means not enough votes and totally distorted result :| |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
 |
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Flavioweb
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 466 |
Quoting GroepazAnd there it is: the first "anonymous votings are bad" thread of 2017!
May be a "rule" for ICC2017...
"Final chart take in care just public votes".
If we were wrong to date, it is not necessary that we continue to make mistakes tomorrow.
=P |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quoting Mermaidan attempt to manipulate the results in my favour. Could you please delete your 1 votes? :(
That fool sneaky one doesn't know that it's best to manipulate giving 4-7s or 9-10s if you go for par excellence skulduggery! (me ducks and covers :D) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
I find it kinda amusing that people are disputing votes on a novelty bogus contest where there's literally no award whatsoever for achieving a top position. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 455 |
This is an intro competion thread, but this voting rant is always entertaining. It is how democracy works, one inputs a vote that sums up their opinion and when someone else votes differently one is free to complain, blame, coerce, convince, threaten, influence or bribe the ppl who vote differently. Or, one could just thumb up everything and be done with it and be no wiser. But... bribing *wink* *wink* :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quoting JailbirdI find it kinda amusing that people are disputing votes on a novelty bogus contest where there's literally no award whatsoever for achieving a top position.
Well, there *is* a reward in that the folks behind the winning entries will have managed to come out at the top of a fifty plus pile of submissions; doing reasonably well in a strong field is always an ego boost whilst having the first vote on a release being an anonymous five does piss on the metaphorical chips somewhat.
Honestly, i just want to be loved... or at least lusted after, that works too. =-) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quoting T.M.RHonestly, i just want to be loved... or at least lusted after, that works too. =-)
Or at least dangle from the ceiling with apple in your mouth and being spanked fiercely as a reward xD Close or no cigar? |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quoting JammerOr at least dangle from the ceiling with apple in your mouth and being spanked fiercely as a reward xD Close or no cigar?
Well, the apple isn't really my style...? =-) |
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DKT
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 99 |
For those who don't like to click to much (like I do ;-) ):
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B53D_0j-UlWqQi1KZVRoMXl6TGs
All entries sorted by group names.
GP: 5 entries
Atlantis: 4 entries
Mayday!: 3 entries
TND: 3 entries
Victory: 3 entries
Camelot: 2 entries
Cosine: 2 entries
Delta Machine: 2 entries
EXON: 2 entries
Finnish Gold: 2 entries
Laxity: 2 entries
Vision: 2 entries
...rest of groups: 1 entry
WHAT A GREAT COMPO! \o/ |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting T.M.R
Well, there *is* a reward in that the folks behind the winning entries will have managed to come out at the top of a fifty plus pile of submissions;
Yes, that would make sense, if...
- the compo would be anonymous, by what I mean no credits displayed, so it would be free of namevoting (sure, this wouldn't be foolproof since the group names would be there, but still)
- the voting would only start after the deadline (or even better, all the intros would be released at once)
- a sensible, non-anonymous voting system would be used, where every release would get the same amount of votes, or a single voter would spread votes from a range of 1 to 10 to 10 releases of choice (IIRC, like the voting went on C64.sk's Cover Compo)
...so participants would actually be confident of their achievements' legitimacy, and be able to feel a more or less accurate weight of appreciation from fellow sceners. It's just sad to see that people have to ask cretins to remove their downvotes from other intros in order to keep the compo fair and square.
Till all that's sorted out, I can't really think more of these CSDb compos than being delightful happenings where nice stuff are released (which is good of course). But I couldn't care less about the rankings, as they seem highly influenced by various social affairs and timing. I don't really understand in what way could that boost anyone's ego, but maybe I'm just naive. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
nice long discussion. Oswald, pleez pass me some of those popcorns!
so... ICC2016 gone - where's DOTY2017?
:) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quoting JailbirdYes, that would make sense, if...
- the compo would be anonymous, by what I mean no credits displayed, so it would be free of namevoting (sure, this wouldn't be foolproof since the group names would be there, but still)
Most of us have a recognisable "style", so even if we went to extremes where every logo said "Anonymous" and the scrolltext was Lorem Ipsum there'd still be ways to work out whose work it was... even assuming you can persuade a group of sceners to keep their collective gobs shut for the entire duration of the competition. =-)
Quoting JailbirdBut I couldn't care less about the rankings, as they seem highly influenced by various social affairs and timing.
i'm not entirely sure that isn't to some degree true of any scene competition though...?
Quoting JailbirdI don't really understand in what way could that boost anyone's ego, but maybe I'm just naive.
[Shrugs] We're all different; some people are mature enough not to need it like you, others are emotional car crashes waiting to happen like me and the rest probably sit somewhere between those points. =-) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting T.M.RMost of us have a recognisable "style",
Well then I'm probably quite bad at recognizing styles, as by the visuals/audials alone, I'd never guess 100% correctly the people involved in the current top 10 intros (except the graphician in New Year's Resolution) :)
Quoting T.M.Rso even if we went to extremes where every logo said "Anonymous" and the scrolltext was Lorem Ipsum there'd still be ways to work out whose work it was... even assuming you can persuade a group of sceners to keep their collective gobs shut for the entire duration of the competition. =-)
At least it would somewhat reduce the votes which are directed to particular persons' traits instead of the actual quality of their releases.
Quoting T.M.Ri'm not entirely sure that isn't to some degree true of any scene competition though...?
Certainly, but I'd rather participate in a contest where those elements are much less influential factors than they are on CSDb compos. A huge network of friends and fans is a vast advantage which sometimes can't be matched by talent only. Anonymity solves that to a certain extent. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
:) Fans, thanks! Friends, thanks! Others, fuck you!
When we have the results in a few days, would that be much different compared to using a voting-system such as the c64.sk music compos? I doubt it. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quoting HeinWhen we have the results in a few days, would that be much different compared to using a voting-system such as the c64.sk music compos? I doubt it.
Right, probably the same releases in the top 10-15 just in different order. But a voting system similar to C64.sk's would significantly discourage the manipulative/scheming voting behavior, and there would be a more realistic order on the leading places.
I don't really get it. If the participants' only motivation is just to reach a high rank and not to win the actual compo, then why are some people bringing up the faulty voting system at all? As it doesn't really influences the highest positions.
But if the point of the compo is to win it, then isn't it more uplifting to reach the top in a way which is the least prone to ill will?
Well, whatever whatever tingles your jingles. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Quoting TheRykLike Hein, Mixer and others already said in other words: Let's just be glad or even a little proud of what scene (as a community! fucking around with 8 bit stuff as a hobby!) was capable of doing within a few months in an X year, and let me finish with stating quality and quantity are a blast!
^^Yes, this!
Thanks again for organising, Didi |
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Dr.Science
Registered: Oct 2011
Posts: 42 |
I'm with Mermaid: NTSC compatibility would be nice :-)
But I understand, that it might lead to less entries. Also because this is an "Intro Competition" and not a "Crack Intro Compo".
Anyway, great Compo Didi! |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
Quoting MermaidThe only thing I'd change would be to add an NTSC compatibility requrement ;) Including sub-requirements:
* Same aspect ratio (pixel aspect ratios are different)
* Same tonal scales and pitch (SID clocking is different)
* Same scroller and transition speeds (video frame rates are different)
;)
But seriously, NTSC compatibility is required for _actual_ intros, so seems sensible for a compo like this. It further restricts what can be done, mind (re: unpossible NTSC fix of Turrican). :D |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Congrats Vanja. Thanks to Didi, the participants and supporters. :) |
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Axis/Oxyron
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2007
Posts: 91 |
Thanks to Didi and everyone participating. This compo was awesome. 53 intros, wow. Grats to Mermaid and Hein. |
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Dr.Science
Registered: Oct 2011
Posts: 42 |
Congratulations to the top 3 - well done and deserved! |
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Axis/Oxyron
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2007
Posts: 91 |
Again 53 entries. The whole Spectrum, Amstrad, Atari, Amiga, Whatever scenes together didnt get that amount of releases out over the whole year. |
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Angel of Death
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 211 |
Again had fun this time.
Even managed to end up 13 places higher than in 2014. :)
Seeing forward to the next one. (and even to the discussions in the forum about it ;) )
Till next time! |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Thanks and congrats to Didi and all participants! I have to tell, I'm damn satisfied ;) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
Quote: Again had fun this time.
Even managed to end up 13 places higher than in 2014. :)
Seeing forward to the next one. (and even to the discussions in the forum about it ;) )
Till next time!
haha. same for me (13 places higher than last ICC) :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quoting ZeSmasherhaha. same for me (13 places higher than last ICC) :)
Bloody show offs! [Comedy sulking about dropping eleven places!]
Also, yays that was fun so thanks to Didi and everyone who contributed... when do we get another go? =-) |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Maybe end of this year. 2 months before and around christmas seems to be perfect for it.
You people are awesome. Great entries overall. Very high quality level. Will be hard to beat. |
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Pad
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 3 |
Thank you for organizing this Didi. Was great fun to participate, and I'm looking forward to the next one in ten months. |
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Lux
Registered: Apr 2011
Posts: 18 |
Thank you Didi for this ICC compo! Congratulations to the winners! See you again at the end of this year :) |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
I can only repeat what the rest of you said; this was a fun event with a truly impressive amount of good, great and awesome intros. Thank you Didi and all who took part, looking forward to seeing what people will come up with next time! |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Great compo! Congrats to Mermaid! |
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aNdy
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 41 |
I can only repeat what Mermaid said above about repeating what everyone else has said. Great fun, excellent quality. Thanks to Didi for organising, well done to top 3. |
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Rudi
Registered: May 2010
Posts: 126 |
What everybody else said. And thanks for accepting my entry in the end. Next time I will play it safe an do a simple one-screener instead. |
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Scan
Registered: Dec 2015
Posts: 111 |
Dang, I never expected to end up 18th in the compo, in a positive way. With the exception of one or two (which got disqualified anyway) I enjoyed watching each submission, and you guys (and gal) did a marvellous job!
Only thing I feel a bit sorry about is my downvote on some intros. During the christmas days I've upgraded my WinVICE from on PokeFinder, only to realise today that the default setup for VIC-II has changed from 6569 to 8565, which shows the grey dot glitch on the newer VIC-II chipset. http://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=11&topicid=78186&firstpost=2 (For example, the intro from Cosine, sorry guys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yahFWVpHKE) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Don't worry, it's not as though i didn't know those "sparkles" would be there since my workhorse machine is a C64C right now... "tilting" the splits like that made it a little less obvious and went some way towards hiding what i'm doing on the badlines. =-) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2266 |
Compo killer release came early this time ;)
Congratulations to mermaid and EVERYone competing! |
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Hammerfist
Registered: May 2011
Posts: 11 |
Great work everyone, I enjoyed all of the entries a LOT. Seems like they do get better every time around. Had hoped for a bit of an upheaval of the usual top contenders, you know, to see some other talent shine, but I guess the rest of us just need to try even harder next time!
Thanks for another great compo, Didi! |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Yes, excellent work everyone. Loving the diversity of the entries, and it was a good kick up the pants to improve bits of my toolchain. Still to do - get better at scheduling so I can polish the design next time round :D
Thanks Didi, and everyone who entered, commented or voted! |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Also, as for next year's compo, I'm really liking the idea of using "must be able to restore arbitrary blob of size X" instead of a RAM usage window. Perhaps a packed size of at most 8k, or 51201 bytes when concatenated with 42k blob that must be relocated to the $0801 to $b000 area on demo exit?
Should satisfy the "that's not how intros work" crowd, and also make for an interesting crunching challenge. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
ChristopherJam: But then there won't be any "how the fuck"-effect when you make an even better version of your FLI routine. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
True that.. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
enlighten me, why is how the fuck a 1/3rd screen fli in 16k ?
whopping ~5k needed to do it ?
I like the scroller down there more. Seen enough (even too much) fli already |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Must admit, I thought scrolling the background was more interesting than just fitting FLI in, much as it was a pain interleaving things between the 300 byte frags of VM. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
Just a little note to the quality level compared to ICC 2014:
With a voting average of 8.0 you got rank 9 in 2014 but rank 20+ in 2016.
With a voting average of 7.0 you got rank 24 in 2014 but rank 46+ in 2016.
That's a difference, isn't it? ;) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting Oswaldenlighten me, why is how the fuck a 1/3rd screen fli in 16k ?
whopping ~5k needed to do it ?
Yes, but it moves, and there's other stuff on the screen, like that huge scroller, plus music. Not saying that it couldn't be improved... I have ideas, but I'll only bother if the next ICC has a similar 16K block limitation. Otherwise FLI stuff gets too easy. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
Quote: Just a little note to the quality level compared to ICC 2014:
With a voting average of 8.0 you got rank 9 in 2014 but rank 20+ in 2016.
With a voting average of 7.0 you got rank 24 in 2014 but rank 46+ in 2016.
That's a difference, isn't it? ;)
imho thats not the quality levele, but the circle jerk getting stronger :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
Quote: Quoting Oswaldenlighten me, why is how the fuck a 1/3rd screen fli in 16k ?
whopping ~5k needed to do it ?
Yes, but it moves, and there's other stuff on the screen, like that huge scroller, plus music. Not saying that it couldn't be improved... I have ideas, but I'll only bother if the next ICC has a similar 16K block limitation. Otherwise FLI stuff gets too easy.
moving is a bunch of lda ,x sta ,y copy loops, not even utilising the mirrored nature of the effect. so there is more than enough rastertime I guess :) the best stuff about it is the scroller imho. somehow it scales up and blurs the rom font realtime I guess. or maybe its done in a precalc phase... :P |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quote: imho thats not the quality levele, but the circle jerk getting stronger :)
Even though you requested a v2 jerk-off, you naughty! How was it? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
Quote: Even though you requested a v2 jerk-off, you naughty! How was it?
Im glad you're excited for jerk offs. I've checked back the earlier compos tho to verify and indeed the quality has risen, so I take that back :) |
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Hawk
Registered: Sep 2015
Posts: 17 |
Today i started coding from nothing again after 23 years in vice with cyberpunx retroreplay plain assembler....
this year i will compare too....
Thx for all the great intros !! *Thumbs up*
Greets Hawk |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Please arrange one again this year... Already coding on an entry. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
\o/ |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: Please arrange one again this year... Already coding on an entry.
Maybe straight after the music compo we should have it. It was around about November-December last year. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
@Cruzer: you can't code anything yet since ICC17 hasn't started. it's like you score a goal and the match will only start in 1 hour :) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
@ZeSmasher: Eh, what I meant was, I'm coding an entry for something else. Not cheating at all. :) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
One sidenote for future compos:
priZes! For Fuck Sake, priZes! xD |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
afaik there were prizes for doty 2014 compo. Still there were only 6 entries. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
you damn capitalists only thinking about prizes and money! tsk tsk...
btw: thanks for the 100 BTCs for my 2nd place at DOTY14! :P |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Gonna arrange an ICC 2017, Didi? Otherwise I might do it. How hard can it be? Just copy/paste the rules from last time and change the year. :) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
mmmmh, thinking. we had ICC2013, ICC2014, ICC2016... it's obvious that ICC is following the Fibonacci sequence, so next one will be ICC2019! :)
what about a new DOTY instead? |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Too late for a DOTY with less than two months left of the year I think, since DOTYs (or DOTIEs?) tend to get less entries that each take longer to produce. But I might be a bit biased since I have an entry ready which complies with the usual ICC rules, and which it would be nice to release this year because it kinda celebrates an anniversary. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
how about a demopart compo instead of doty :) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
@Oswald, I don't know if with your smile at the end you are ironic or what, but I like the idea!! basically it's similar to ICC, without one rule: memory limits!
oh, btw... here's my smile: :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
not ironic, I think it could be fun for coders and for the scene. A lot of guys could release something they are sitting on, because waiting for more parts for a demo, or too lazy to link, etc. Also some other guys would do a new fx for the same reasons. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
How's that different from DOTY? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
not having to link it together with intro, and absolute freedom (only rule would be one file loadable with basic), plus there will be a best one of the parts because of voting/compo ? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11391 |
why dont you just organize such compo then? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
thats not my job. I'll deliver a part if someone does it. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
Quote:not having to link it together with intro, and absolute freedom (only rule would be one file loadable with basic), plus there will be a best one of the parts because of voting/compo ?
all what Oswald said, plus you can upload your entry when it's ready (b4 the deadline) instead of keeping it secret till DOTY is finished, and we trust in CSDb's voting system.
Quote:why dont you just organize such compo then?
Oswald + others, if I may help count on me! but I suggest to wait for some feedback first. I mean: perhaps it's just Oswald and me who like the idea?! :) also if we do a DemoPart Creation Compo now there won't be any ICC2017. Will that make people with an intro ready mad? (hello Cruzer) :) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
@ZeSmasher: No, I'll just organize an ICC anyway, and if I'm the only one competing it also means I'm pretty certain I'll win it. :) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
so ICC2017 and DPCC2018 (early next year)? that's ok for me.
I'm ready to downvote your entry! :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5095 |
jesus christ this intro compo was near year ago ?! :D |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Yup, time flies ;) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
let's make an intro about it! :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11391 |
Quote:Oswald + others, if I may help count on me! but I suggest to wait for some feedback first. I mean: perhaps it's just Oswald and me who like the idea?! :)
that way it will never happen, forget it |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
will happen or won't happen, it all depends on us. in some past posts of this long thread someone said entries should be max 4K, someone else said max 8K, someone said they must be NTSC compatible, etc. now the latest idea is to ignore the 16K max size rule. so let's see how the new ICC will be organized, with the same old rules or with some adjustments. then we could think about a new different compo or not. IMHO since the last ICC happened only one year ago while DOTY was in 2014 I would prefer a demo compo to end the year, but I'll contribute with something anyway, in any compo. :) |
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Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
How about... must leave enough memory for a loader to run. That way it can still be an intro ;-) |
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zscs
Registered: Sep 2010
Posts: 49 |
I have an unfinished one-file demo from 1993, so if there wouldn't be a 16k limit, then I could get some motivation finally to finish that old-school crap :) :P
(Okay, ICC, DOTY or anything else are fine to me:-) |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
DOTY 2013 had a size limit of 60 blocks for the final packed file, not for memory usage overall. And a small menu back-loader which had to be included. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11391 |
Quote:will happen or won't happen, it all depends on us.
if you want it to happen, then you'll have to fucking DO it. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
Quoting ZeSmashernow the latest idea is to ignore the 16K max size rule 16K maximum size is okay, the stupid part about that rule was to have the remaining 48K in one contiguous block of memory WHILE the intro is running (as opposed to after pressing space).
Quoting ConjurorHow about... must leave enough memory for a loader to run. That way it can still be an intro ;-) It would be cool if drive code was allowed, for some extra processing power. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting Krillthe stupid part about that rule was to have the remaining 48K in one contiguous block It can be in two blocks if you want, as long as the intro is in one block. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2982 |
"Wow". |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Quoting ZeSmasher
Oswald + others, if I may help count on me! but I suggest to wait for some feedback first. I mean: perhaps it's just Oswald and me who like the idea?! :) also if we do a DemoPart Creation Compo now there won't be any ICC2017. Will that make people with an intro ready mad? (hello Cruzer) :)
Some feedback: I'd rather have ICC2017, identical rules to last year aside from the $4000 bytes contiguous section.
Replace that with:
-file size of at most 51200 bytes
-after space is pressed, must fill RAM from $0801 to $9000 with the contents of {provided 34kb file of incompressible data} then jmp $080d
That still allows for 16kb of intro, but memory can be shuffled around as per effect requirements. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
Quote:if you want it to happen, then you'll have to fucking DO it.
ok, you are putting some pressure on my back. :) no problem, but it was Oswald who had the idea for a demopart compo, I just liked his idea. So now if after ICC17 Oswald, you or anyone else want to co-organize that event with me just PM me and I'll more than happy to help. If I should organize a compo alone I'd choose a more stupid subject, like a single note sid compo, a 3x3 char petscii compo or a sex games remake compo. I don't want to be remembered in the future I did something serious all alone. I've a reputation to uphold! :P |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
(equivalently, if you load "intro",8 then run the intro then press space, it should restore whatever the contents of locations $4801 to $cfff were before jumping to $4801. It has almost the same impact on memory usage, and the entries can be smaller.) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quoting Krill16K maximum size is okay, the stupid part about that rule was to have the remaining 48K in one contiguous block of memory WHILE the intro is running (as opposed to after pressing space).
AFAIR you could freely choose the bank for your intro ;) I chose the shittiest 0 but that wasn't mandatory :D |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
The 16k were not needed to be in one bank, just to be at one block which could also go across a bank border. Some competititors used this option. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Ah, that's even better! :D |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
 |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
boring weekend. so where's ICC? :) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Waiting for answer from Didi regarding permission to use the name ICC'17. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
crack it! ICC17+++ :) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
one week later... |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 488 |
ICC 17 will run about the same time as last year.
More details when compo starts. |
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
As in, you started it two weeks ago but didn't tell anyone to have a head start? ;) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Perhaps with a memory ruling as simple as this?
"On exit, $3800-$cfff must be restored to whatever they were before the intro was loaded and executed"
It's much closer to 'real life' conditions, where the only real constraints are "don't add 'too much' data" and "don't corrupt the thing you're introing" |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Also, hurrah! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11391 |
also cut the size in half (at least). 16k for a crack intro is ridiculous. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2266 |
what gpz sez! I'd even go for 4K, 8K is better than 16K, but practically not really a limit |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1791 |
IMO the runtime footprint isn't necessarily a problem, but the binary size should be small. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11391 |
of course depends on if you actually want to link some proper game and not just some "cracked" 16k cartridge =) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
I'd simply choose an exomized piece of hefty game that every contestant is supposed to attach. No trainer/docs required ;) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
I'd choose the same rules as last time. Simple, easy to check and avoids bloated binaries. Plus it creates a challenge of its own - create VIC tricks within a $4000 block. This means a lot of the usual tricks aren't possible, but then the challenge becomes to find other ways to do something similar. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
what Cruzer said |
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Axis/Oxyron
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2007
Posts: 91 |
Yep, what cruzer said. And any news on the 2017 compo? |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
Quote: one week later...
jmp quote |
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
Call me silly, but if Didi's too busy to copy a bunch of rules and announce it's time again, why doesn't somebody else if you all wanna do it? |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 521 |
'coz ICC is (c) Didi. if you organize it without his permission his revenge will be so cruel and terrible, like flooding CSDb with lxt releases! :) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting Sevenwhy doesn't somebody else if you all wanna do it? Was gonna do that, but then Didi promised to do it. About to run out of patience though. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11391 |
the lynchmob is ready.... where are the pitchforks? |
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Maxlide
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 32 |
Quote: I'd simply choose an exomized piece of hefty game that every contestant is supposed to attach. No trainer/docs required ;)
Exactly. This is 100% needed, otherwise this will become a onefile demo competition instead of an intro competition (again). |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
That will make all the entries load from $0801 to $ffff (or at least well over $d000), i.e. not able to load on a stock C64 without cartridge. And how will it prevent demo'ish intros? It will only enable VIC tricks that use all banks, which means more standard demo effects. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
The "restores ram between $2800 and $d000 on completion" suggestion was meant to be a way of saying "must be able to coexist with the game being introed" without forcing people to pad out their intro with a fake release.
Cruzer: regardless of whether there's a dummy game release or a 'preserve ram' rule, there's still a lot more restrictions than most demos have to deal with. And either way the file size is effectively limited; not sure where you got your $0801 to $ffff from. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quote: The "restores ram between $2800 and $d000 on completion" suggestion was meant to be a way of saying "must be able to coexist with the game being introed" without forcing people to pad out their intro with a fake release.
Cruzer: regardless of whether there's a dummy game release or a 'preserve ram' rule, there's still a lot more restrictions than most demos have to deal with. And either way the file size is effectively limited; not sure where you got your $0801 to $ffff from.
Can has intro from $d000 till $1000 without restoration of memories, pls?
This is not a Crack Intro Creation Competition, btw. |
