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robthecat
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 3 |
New Graphic Hardware for C64
New Graphic Hardware
Is there a interest for a new GFX Bord aka VIC 2005 ???
I allways think the C64 need an new Gfx Mode with more
Colors, Sprites and Resolutions.
if you Agree,
Drop me a line,
Thanx
Rob D. |
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
I can see dual sid cards, because hey, the sid is arguably the soul of the c64. You know, it's still uniquely c64.
I can see how a supercpu equipped c64 is cool - you can run your existing crunchers at a faster speed, it's still c64 software. But yet, the 16 bit mode of it, that just seems wrong. I dunno, tho, I'm aware people have done amazing things with it. And it's not like it's just a 68k or an arm or something, i guess.
You see, the thing is, I already have two pc's, and one of them, I picked up on the side of the road. I also have an amiga. And they have all of this neat graphics hardware already. This whole exercise of turning a c64 into an amiga or a pc, what's the point? |
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robthecat
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 3 |
Ok ! Thanks. Maybe I forget to think about the character
of the machine.
What you think about Jeri´s C-one Computer ???
Rob D.
Before I start such complex project I need infos from you
and the rest of the Scene.
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cbmhardware
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 19 |
Quote: New Graphic Hardware
Is there a interest for a new GFX Bord aka VIC 2005 ???
I allways think the C64 need an new Gfx Mode with more
Colors, Sprites and Resolutions.
if you Agree,
Drop me a line,
Thanx
Rob D.
If you adapt a VGA card, you will disable the VIC showing effects. Sure, a higher resolution and true-color looks nice, but this is imo not the meaning in demo coding.
If you insert blitter,use a fast core, I will call it Amiga 64. ;) |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
PAL is the best solution for any low resolution and few colors system, but PAL also complicates things. if you choose VGA, you'll need a high resolution (640x400 minimum) and a good number of colors (65536 minimum) to make it look good. everything below looks just like plain shit.
now lets calculate: 640x400 with 2 bytes per pixel. on a 6502 @ 0.985 mhz with minimum 8 cycles to move a byte that makes 4 seconds to update a frame under best circumstances. make that 7-10 in reality. this still assumes that you can access a byte by simple LDA/STA...
i think anything which needs to be counted in seconds per frame and not frames per second is quite useless. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
I was wondering.
Those hacked C64DTV's, what can they add to the current C64 (demo)scene (with 256 colors and the enhancements in mind) ?
R.
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
What creates the "wow" effect of seeing a cool effect on c64 is that you know about the limitations of the machine. So if you remove the limitations, you also remove the wow-effect. Maybe we should go for an even MORE limited system, to get bigger wow-effects? |
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cbmhardware
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 19 |
Quote: PAL is the best solution for any low resolution and few colors system, but PAL also complicates things. if you choose VGA, you'll need a high resolution (640x400 minimum) and a good number of colors (65536 minimum) to make it look good. everything below looks just like plain shit.
now lets calculate: 640x400 with 2 bytes per pixel. on a 6502 @ 0.985 mhz with minimum 8 cycles to move a byte that makes 4 seconds to update a frame under best circumstances. make that 7-10 in reality. this still assumes that you can access a byte by simple LDA/STA...
i think anything which needs to be counted in seconds per frame and not frames per second is quite useless.
There is no way to integrate VGA in the existing circuit.
Imo it is only possible to use an adapter and transfer bytes to the external logic. It needs an own clock and CPU, the second ... it's pretty useless, a fast bitplane mode like 13h (MCGA 320x200x256) requires 64kb for one screen. ;) |
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Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
Cruzer: Wouldn't a commodore with more wow effect be the VIC-20 in that case? ;)
I was more wowed by the VIC-20 demos I've seen recently (so I've been out of the loop for a while) than any c64 demo.
As for the DTV, I think there is still wow potential there, if the new features are pushed to the limit by talented coders. |
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weibel
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 2 |
See this for an attempt of making a VGA adaptor
http://www.btinternet.com/~commodorescene/vga.html |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 899 |
that's a video (PAL/NTSC) -> VGA converter, not a new graphics card with it's own memory and all.. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quote: I can see dual sid cards, because hey, the sid is arguably the soul of the c64. You know, it's still uniquely c64.
I can see how a supercpu equipped c64 is cool - you can run your existing crunchers at a faster speed, it's still c64 software. But yet, the 16 bit mode of it, that just seems wrong. I dunno, tho, I'm aware people have done amazing things with it. And it's not like it's just a 68k or an arm or something, i guess.
You see, the thing is, I already have two pc's, and one of them, I picked up on the side of the road. I also have an amiga. And they have all of this neat graphics hardware already. This whole exercise of turning a c64 into an amiga or a pc, what's the point?
i totally second that. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
VIC-II + SID = C64
the cpu and stuff like cia etc are kinda replaceable. if you have VIC and SID you can achieve C64 look & feel with any cpu. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
how about a vic II+sid with 3Ghz+512 ram ? :) |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
erm no :) i was more thinking about 1982 when the c64 was finished. if they took another cpu then... |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3052 |
Quote: i totally second that.
"Quote: I can see dual sid cards, because hey, the sid is arguably the soul of the c64. You know, it's still uniquely c64.
I can see how a supercpu equipped c64 is cool - you can run your existing crunchers at a faster speed, it's still c64 software. But yet, the 16 bit mode of it, that just seems wrong. I dunno, tho, I'm aware people have done amazing things with it. And it's not like it's just a 68k or an arm or something, i guess.
You see, the thing is, I already have two pc's, and one of them, I picked up on the side of the road. I also have an amiga. And they have all of this neat graphics hardware already. This whole exercise of turning a c64 into an amiga or a pc, what's the point?"
Me too. |
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
i think it is a nice hardware project. it probably will be a very fun way of practicing with FPGA stuff. but i do not think it will be of much use to the scene.
if anybody out there is interested in a hardware project idea useful to everyone, i suggest a 1541 replacement: an adapter to a PC floppy or better a usb disk. the critical feature is that it should hace the exact 6502 and the CIAs behaviour so it supports all the fast loaders used in most demos. our 1541s are dying of mechanical or electronic failures one by one and we will run out of them a lot sooner than the c64s.
if nobody does this by then, i will try someday :)
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Stingray
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 117 |
I have been working on a video board for the 64 for a while now. I already have a simple PAL cct which I'm now interfacing to the 64 (The PAL cct I've designed is interfaced to an 8051 at the moment), The idea is that the 64 will still use the Vic II and only switch to the video board when software tells it to and will still use the same PAL output. Once I've interfaced the cct I wll start working on improving it. The reslolution will remain at 320x200 (improvments will be other things mainly to do with simple 3D graphics). At the moment I'm working on getting the 6510 to write to static ram (Any one here done it before?). Any way I'm only working on this while I have spare time which isn't often at the moment. There is a thread on this in coding forum.
Not everyone will like it, but I will and it means that I can have a real 64 with improved graphics and not have to by a C-one. |
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LordNikon
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 42 |
A 256 colormode (8bit color are enough ;) ) and a little 3d Speedup would be cool. |
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Stingray
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 117 |
agreed! By the way here's the link to the thread on the graphics board FASTER 3D GRAPHICS
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notalentcoder
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2009
Posts: 10 |
Quote: i think it is a nice hardware project. it probably will be a very fun way of practicing with FPGA stuff. but i do not think it will be of much use to the scene.
if anybody out there is interested in a hardware project idea useful to everyone, i suggest a 1541 replacement: an adapter to a PC floppy or better a usb disk. the critical feature is that it should hace the exact 6502 and the CIAs behaviour so it supports all the fast loaders used in most demos. our 1541s are dying of mechanical or electronic failures one by one and we will run out of them a lot sooner than the c64s.
if nobody does this by then, i will try someday :)
Well there is the old CMD line of hard drives and floppy drive replacements which cost an arm and a leg, but at least they are still being produced (I think?). In either case new interfaces seem the logical next step for mass storage. I can see more new development on the ole 64 if media could be stored and manipulated efficiently on modern hardware. Fast loaders wouldn't be needed if the 64's storage options could be moved into the 1990's with a little more and needed gusto. :) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
If it should make any point to me it should be a totally new machine, so productions for this would work for everyone that had one, instead of only some people having those expansions.
But the main thing would have to be an improved sid chip - mainly to have more voices and perhaps a few channels dedicated to digi. the computer should be a bit faster, have a bit better gfx, more ram and so on... Still it should be a limited machine, to keep the good feeling about impressing poeple with it, contra the fact of it not being some super-pc. As I totally agree on the "wow-effect" mentioned in posts above. Anyways, I'm still very pleased with c64 and there is still a lot of neat things to be done with it.
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
Quote: See this for an attempt of making a VGA adaptor
http://www.btinternet.com/~commodorescene/vga.html
The Chameleon cartridge from Individual Computers is aiming to include a flicker-fixer and VGA interface...
There's also the DTV with its extra colour modes (see Cosine's Blok Copy game released this past weekend) |
