| |
Honesty
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 121 |
0ldschool demos
Dah text had not been saved but hasd no time to write again...
Fuck
|
|
| |
TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
This is like getting a call from somebody who says he has no time to speak right now, when you didn't expect him to call in the first place .. |
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: Dah text had not been saved but hasd no time to write again...
Fuck
Hmmm...this topic got me triggered. Too bad you're too lazy to type it in for the second time ;-)
Rasterbars are still teh shiznit!
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
| |
Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Oh man I forgot to write something here. |
| |
iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
Must increase my post points.. . . . . . .. . . ... |
| |
CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
For fucks sake, what a screwed up view of the oldschool scene you people (may) have!! I can't believe you guys are honestly saying intolerant crap like this (in my imagination) and i think you are all (perhaps) racist motherfuckers
[edit: i was told it wasn't obvious that this was an answer to the flame-war that have not been going on in this thread. I don't think anyone is intolerant or racists] |
| |
Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
SHUT UP!! |
| |
iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
its like WSB and Yoda met, in the 80ies back. Or like david lynch at the age of 44. why lsd? why not? Have you ever had a nightmare or felt the need to swim into the ocean when the night comes falling from the sky or just another number 13 baby with the egg head inside a box of toiletpaper for being spoiled rotten of too much coma light..
seriously.. what about that 0ldschool demos? |
| |
deizi
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 95 |
Quote: Hmmm...this topic got me triggered. Too bad you're too lazy to type it in for the second time ;-)
Rasterbars are still teh shiznit!
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl
"Rasterbars are still teh shiznit!" AGREED! |
| |
Honesty
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 121 |
Problem was that i had to leave for bday and text got sucked better said can´t be copied and i don´t had the time to write again.
So here we go again.
Reading the reviews of our demo made me think about some things.
Why should every demo look the same?Like most of the so called new school demos?
Should ppl change their style only to please the taste of people and get better ranked?
For my opinion 64 is no pc and doing some awfull effects only to show that it is possible at the 64 too equal how ugly it looks sucks.
And scene changed in this way that ppl would like to see demos on 64 which look like from pc.
But hey this is not where demos come from.
And every coder make a show off of his abilities(when he had more or less ;) )why else should he code demos?
I normally want to write more but as i am not that often online at the moment and i don´t want to start a flame-war here which hadn´t any acceptable results,this is all for now.
|
| |
Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
who said every demo should look same? |
| |
Wanderer
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 478 |
Lately it seems many do... plasma, plasma and more plasma.
Much like my time in the 80's when it was rasters, rasters and rasters.
|
| |
iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
Really good point wanderer. If anyone know how bored I am of the raster bar demos of 87-89. Gathering information about groups is mostly for me, no demo watching. I usually freeze the part and then use the arpmon with I* and warpspeed to get to the scroller. However, thats another story..
>Why should every demo look the same?Like most of the so called new school demos?
imho, we have a much bigger variety when it comes to design of demos than we had 15 years ago. In my book Borderline, Postcards from Stockholm and Panta Rhei are miles away from each other when it comes to design.
>Should ppl change their style only to please the taste of people and get better ranked?
Yes and no, imagine that you are doing the same kind of demo over and over, year after year, without showing no real progress of your skills, eventually people will become bored and say your stuff sucks. This applies to games aswell.. If you cant live with people not like your style you better change, otherwise just stick to the concept.
>And every coder make a show off of his abilities(when he had more or less ;) )why else should he code demos?
For me its a curse, I see stuff everywhere that I put into 8x8 pixel squares and then try to imagine how to do it on the c64. Never really been about doing awesome recordbreaking effects, but to see if its possible to make it on the c64 and if it would look good.
Then again, what is oldschool? the really cool arty "demos" of 85-86, the first scene demos/intros, the scroll + rasterbar demos with ripped game gfx, the 89-93 code stuff, the early trackmos, the 4x4 generation, the polish wave, the swedish ikea arte?
(with reservation for me missing some important key player.)
|
| |
Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Hmm I can't see a "plasma overkill". There has been a number of demos with 4x4 tunnels and plasmas in the past, but nowhere near the rasterbar overkill in the 80s where almost every demopart looked the same. |
| |
Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
especially oxyron demos ;D
Logo->effect->scroll ;D
<hides> |
| |
TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
I think Honesty does make a valid point, only 10 years too late ;) |
| |
Honesty
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 121 |
@ Iopop:Sure ppl should change the style if it suxx.
But most of the newer demos run after the same trend.
Something like this: picture ,effect,fade away effect,new effect, new picture and so on...
And u pointed out yourself u try to transport effects from pc to 64 when they look good!
Hey read the post i spoke about ugly looking effects, when they come smooth and u can watch em without getting eye damage it is surely ok.
Sure this is a new boarder which is past in designing demos, but look all ppl try to do good looking trackmo stuff and most ppl designed that much that the parts are often overloaded with design . ;)
So what is oldschool?Hm another question where scene will splitt.
In my opinion oldschool started where groups begin to do multifile demos or even demos which where done by a group with own gfx(mostly when not ripped) and sometime with own musics when u got one.
There where also boarders moved in doing so called oldschool but the cut in it was not that sharp like it is when it comes to trackmos.
After overtaking the making of trackmos to 64 a radical change in doing demos started.
Sure u had more posibilities 2day like in oldschool parts coz u are able to change the look of the part without any memoryboarders because u can load new stuff if necessary.
For myself i will try when i fixed my memory problem with crosssupports or something else to do demos like in the way of "Red Storm" or "Visuality" this is a nice mixture of both using oldschool fashion with the given possibility to load more on demand.
|
| |
RRR
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 21 |
Quote: especially oxyron demos ;D
Logo->effect->scroll ;D
<hides>
ROCKS! ;-) |
| |
iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
>And u pointed out yourself u try to transport effects from pc to 64 when they look good!
No, I spoke about what motivates me to code and since I hardly ever watch pc demos apart from when Im at a party, PC effects are not a big influence.
|
| |
Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
plasma si teh shite! |
| |
Ben
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 163 |
Just a quick, oversimplified view..
I reckon it is some coders' challenge to put competences to the test to improve and combine novel techniques. As such, occasional new VIC stunts bring about or performance improvements instigate avalanches of demos with (again) improved or merely copied effects. This is only to later die out as the emerging effects become part of most coders' skills and appreciation drops.
More or less the same occurs as far as design is concerned. Occasionally new design conceptions trickle down from the outside world or are dreamt up in combination with unique limitations.
It might turn out that the progressing programming skills frontier facilitates new design-related effects, or even some design requirement bring about technical innovations.
Especially the basic effect-scroller-logo-music design-paradigm has proven persistent (self-reinforced) due to the fact that not only each of the participants had an apparent contribution (which is important for ego-fulfillment, especially for teenagers), but also the lion-share of the youngsters spanning the scene were geographically apart and had limited resources, hence the discreteness of contributions.
Some might claim the status quo is that design-oriented demomakers believe code is a means to an end, while effect-oriented demomakers perceive code as the very end. I argue the distinction in demomakers is getting vaguer by the year due to the development of the very demomaker personality and resources available, the self-reinforcing current variety of design paradigms (as argued by Iopop) and the strong emphasis on originality and novelty.
With progressing integration of classical artisanal demomaking skills, either by multilateral talents (which is being appreciated and hence stimulated), or by extensive communication of demomakers able and willing to put effort in synthesizing talents - e.g. HCL/Dane, Iopop/Twoflower, Hollowman/Puterman, Krill/Fanta, Hein/Ben (erhm) to name only just a few -, the design/code space is explored in less apparent directions. I believe this tendency is persistent for now, however, due to bifurcation effects for clear distinctions, also the oldskool demoscene is likely to be kept alive by a few zealots.. |
| |
Zeus
Registered: Jun 2005
Posts: 16 |
There are always "à la mode" effects that are kinda "mainstream" effects. Maybe not plasma but the technique behind it (4*4) is now mainstream as the raster bars were back in the late 80th/ early 90th.
However there are many grey areas between the black and white schema rasters and plasma. Raster bars can be used as a way to show good coding skills when it comes to splits, no border etc. That´s smoething that maybe only coders can judge while design and a good look doesn´t need great coding skills.
Another thing is that you should not overlook the fact that the so called raster demos were mostly scroll demos. And we were all kinda scroll readers. I see a link between the disappearance of the long scroll texts and the beginning of the usage of effects and design instead of giving the audience something to read and put some rasters above the scroll. Maybe if you see it this way the discussion becomes another point of view. Most demos in the 80th started with a scroller. ;)
Personally I am not bored by the demo scene at all. I still like raster demos as well as plasma demos. The thing is that the demo itself is what I wanna see whatever (almost) it looks like. Ask people why they look Formula 1 with the cars driving in a circle. Everybody has seen cars before. Same goes for soccer. Why the hell do you watch for years (!) now in the stadium or via TV 22 people running behind a ball? Same goes for demos. If I would be bored by anykind of a effetual overkill I am prolly wrong in the demo scene. |
| |
Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
From a 2005 point-of-view it is easy to say that rasterbar demos are not annoying since there are so many non-rasterbar demos out :) |
| |
Zeus
Registered: Jun 2005
Posts: 16 |
Quote: From a 2005 point-of-view it is easy to say that rasterbar demos are not annoying since there are so many non-rasterbar demos out :)
Watch raster bar demos with a mon and you (sometimes) notice the beauty of those demos. ;) |
| |
iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
The reason why the scroller or text in general have disapperared is a result of the ease of communictaion with help from email/irc/CSDb/etc. This in contrast to the limited resoucres mentioned by Ben.
In the early years the only way to "communicate" to the scene was via demos/intros. If you werent greeted you didnt exist. Meaning you had to fill the demos with news, memberstatus, addresses, greetings and current events in general. Today we have other means of communictaion and the motivation to display the memberstatus in the latest demo is rather low.
This phenomenon is quite noticable in earlier demos aswell, from groups that have gained so much respect/confidence from the scene that they dont need the scroller with "network-creating" text. Wonderland 10/Censor is quite a good example of this. Ofcourse, it has scrollers but not in the sense of reaching out to the scene and creating networks. |
| |
Honesty
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 121 |
I agree with the opinion that scrollers were done in the past to transport a message and sure we had other resources today to comunicate.
But hey didn´t we all live a bit in the past?Or why should 30 years and older >daddies< still handle with a 64?
Coz for me it was a nice time and this computer was a part of it.
This is why i start over to code,can´t get lotsa SidS out of my head.
As i quited in 1994 the trackmo scene was just in the beginning so i missed lots of em.
Demos for my view were the so called spacebar demos and there lotsa nice of em.
And sure maybe rasters are lame 2day but in the past ppl spend money to get the source code for a well timed raster or even ripped it from other guys.
And it all started at the beginning.But no one would dare to call the guys lame who invented this effects.
And due to the possibility that we can make more conversation through the technical raise itis easier to gather infos and get one or two hints by other coders when u don´t know how to solve a problem.
But remember this wasn´t that easy in the past like it is 2day and ppl grow older also their knowledge grow aswell.
But would somebody of u think that he can code the effects he did today 15 or 20 years ago?
I don´t think so and this is why the performance of ppl 15 or 20 years ago are awesome.
2day u look into a magazine or got a tutorialin the net how to do something but this was impossible at this time...
Ok that´s enough for now,so later.
Honesty
|
| |
Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Nice post Honesty!
Somehow I feel connected to what you´re trying to say.
The demo scene has changed since I was part of it.
I guess it is quite a normal ´evolution´ as everybody wants to show something different.
Anyway,I like the "press space" demos.
My next release is in the same ´style´ ;)
Fortunately,I remembered most of the way I coded things in the early 90`s.
But,it was never that sophisticated to begin with. ;)
Regarding scrolltexts..
It might have been necessary in the past,but I still think it sux when there is no decent scroller in a demo.
It makes it feel like tv-shows,no personal message at all!!
If you make a scroll,use it! ;)
Greetinxx Honesty for starting this!
|
| |
Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
another thread without a focus:)
What is the point you guys are trying to make. That old demos deserve respect because coders back than had less access to knowledge or tools. I think noone puts old demos down just because it is possible to do them now more easily.
If it is the press space thing vs the trackmo that we are discussing what in the world does it have to do with new demos looking same nowadays.
and when you say oldskool demos do you mean demos that were done back in the early nineties and eighties or all demos even today that are press space and has rasters or plasmas. (That would make yktr an oldskool demo which we really need to discuss)
|
| |
Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
and by the way what would you think of someone who does a few rasterbars in a press space demo release that today and say thathe is doing it for "oldskool's sake".
I think "lazy" |
| |
Honesty
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 121 |
@nightlord:As i explained in an upper post for me oldskool started when crews where formed using own stuff no sound or gfx rip demos... This can be compared with the stone edge ;)
yktr is for sure a demo whichs leans on oldskool traditions.
Maybe 2day raster demos may suck but this is not what we speak about.
And i mean when someone fells free to release em why not?
Would we had the right to say don´t release this or this only for us it is no challange anymore to do it?
HEy most guys started with raster and scroll so don´t forget about it.
For my opinion the time is over to rag somebody down and we should be happy about everyone who starts to code even when
it is just a simple raster.
Or did someone demotivate u when u start coding?For my case i was glad about every support and that forced me to go on.
Coz when this guys don´t follow there is once a leak of coders.
Demos didn´t need to hit everybodies taste when u like em its ok,when u don´t like em it´s ur choice.
(By the way,didn´t u sleep in turkey?Was dawn early ur post ;) )
And this is no tread new against old it is only this kind that ppl forget about how it starts or would u dare to call zodiac lame or the guys from censor back in beginning of the 90´th only because they did oldskool stuff?
It is the evolution of the demos but this don´t handicap me to do oldschool again,maybe with a loader support to release bigger projects but for me i don´t see any reason for doing a trackmo in this kind they look 2day...
@TCH:Thanx,enjoyed ur demos in the past... Hope to see mored stuff from Brutal soon.
|
| |
Slartibartfast
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230 |
Quote: and by the way what would you think of someone who does a few rasterbars in a press space demo release that today and say thathe is doing it for "oldskool's sake".
I think "lazy"
So what would you call your last release for Civitas, or a 70% finished release you did before that?
I'd call it a good effort, but I guess you'd just think it was "lazy".
|
| |
Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
honesty: your last post is more clear for me now. I agree with the fact that people can release whatever they want and can say whatever they want. And I am also OK with coders starting with rasters (or whatever oldskool effect). In fact I exactly wrote that at NSR. But I believe there is a difference when a new coder is trying his hands on some old effects (which is cool) and some guy doing same old effects over and over without improving himself and trying to sell it with "hey I do it because oldskool rocks" line. This is what I am trying to point out.
And for the posting time...:) I am at US at the moment..
slarti: "broken" demo was exactly as big as I wanted it to be. I had about ten days to do all the code, graphics and music so that I could compete at floppy2005. And it was completed several hours before deadline. I sure hope it was more polished but it was more important to compete than to release a more polished version later.
and omot %70 was another party release which I had a graphician friend promising me two full screen graphics later for the 100% version. Unfortunately he could not until now. And I also feel sorry for that demo because I think the polar parts are kinda wasted
But the point is broken has nothing to do with being lazy and OMOT might still become 100% someday:) I released 4 demos almost singlehandedly in last 2 years and I believe I am more or less one of the most hardworking guys. |
| |
Honesty
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 121 |
@Nightlord:I agree.Ppl must burst their boarders to avoid doing boring stuff or alltime the same.
And what kind of demo?What the people like to do... What counts that they do something!
The problem for some "youngtimers" in the scene is that they don´t know the old times(who did at all?? :) )
They grow up in a scene with the trackmos so they might look better form em coz of faster changing screenplay.
Maybe i would think the same when entering the scene after the spacebar period but i am bounded with the other stuff.
I grow up in megademos and Venlo releases and i passed as i admit the trackmo rush.
There are surely very nice ones but this is the world after me ;).
There is a german proverb(free translation) ;) :What the farmen not knows he doesn´t eat...
|
| |
SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
No matter if we are in 1987, or 2005 - I believe a demo should carry a message. It can be anything. The demo should bring some form of news to the user. Pure effect demos bore me.
|
| |
Honesty
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 121 |
@Rambones:Yep...
|
| |
Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Damn,I am no storyteller..
Anybody got a problem with a little enhanced graphix-show? ;) |
| |
Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: Damn,I am no storyteller..
Anybody got a problem with a little enhanced graphix-show? ;)
1 Picture can tell more than 1000 words...
So bring it on! :D
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl |
