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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
demos
READ WITH CARE AND WITH OPEN MIND:
Based on Revolved and demos like that - really great demos... but...
It is truly a beauty of a demo you have created and the hours, work and cleverness behind it must be massive!!!... Can I go beyond the normal standards here? OK? Cool... I just want to ask the c64 scene something that I really think so much about... what are we? What are the scene? Where do we want to be or where do we want to go? What if we become the producers of the all loving and polished no to argue and nothing to complain about? what is the scene then... I think this demo show some super powers in making something run smooth and so seamingless and so splendid... but where is the hard-on? Where is the humor? Where is the fun and loving bits? Where is the contrasts? Where is the black and white? Where is the FUN? When should I smile with sound and when should I cry? I meen this demo is so cool and a great piece til revolved logo is on screen and then the next effect is also cool.... then a line makes a splitt and the demo is insane cool... but after that... what is it really? For me it is people trying to make something that everyone will think is really great. It is so well made this demo so I am on thin ground here and I see that because I see the demo over and over and over again and I just envy the transition power in here and the colors and the fades and all but to me it is really mostly that... the plasma over the char squares are great also.... then the portrait part with the rotating letters, beautiful.... but so without sole... then the best part of the demo comes the rotating stuff.... from here and in it is for me just smooth moves and really beutiful work... but what I really ask is: Is this it? Is that what we are aiming for? The sphere movers are ofcourse beautiful and so cool...everything is really splendid in the demo!!! That is why I try to write this post as true as possible... how many demos like this will it take to kill our scene? We are part of something that we love and we love it because we are part of something that is NOT mainstream... so why do we push the productions to be mainstream? I meen, this is a fantastic demo, it really is and congratulations for the win, I really meen that and I hope you all can read my text in a way that is not hate, not bad or not silly, because I really meen this... Are we not men with our edge anymore? If we want to do the all perfect stuff for all humans on the planet earth, are we then not on the wrong platform??... I want to say something, want you to smile, to cry and to die because it is silly or so hard to grasp... I do not want to make smooth powerpoints with a cool sid tune on top... The cool DANE tune saves this demo even more for me even the demo in itself is so great... but the greatness is not the best for me... can I say this without beeing the worst arse in the scene? In a way I know my powers in making demos and also I know that we can make the transitions and make all blend so great but that is just not fun to do so again super thanx for your time on that, how many demos more would you like to do that on? ...maybe I just am all wrong but to me it is about effects and making some insane things on this machine and not just press the gausian blur button in photoshop and make it be so that everyone likes it... what about make someone puke... make them hate your demo... make them love it... make them be filled with anger... make them cry out of emotions, just a text like my text in Another beginning with the man in the window, it is me, give from yourself, make us beleive, make the viewers be filled with moods in different orders... make a rollercoaster ride... you do not want to go to transition world, what we want is the contrasts that shake us up a bit? the different stuff? the black and white? For me it is so...
I really think our scene will die if we try to make more and more and more transition based demos, I really do think so... I really think it is getting a tad booooooring as fuck now too... AND the worst, one do fun stuff creating a routine, then one must do all that in such a great way after? It is like wasshing the car with a thoothbrush for me in a way... I just do not think it is any fun, do all you others out there love to sit and do fades and transitions more than the effects itself? Do you? because I want to know? Can we just make us be shocked more, feel love more, feel hate more, feel joy more.... Today it is so smooth and it is so nice and it is so cool but it is our death, just because we are so great at what we do so it gets boring in the long run... we have been in this scene for so long, let us try to talk about this? I know bepp and we are so great friends when it comes to demo creating and let us face it... we are the super democreators(we are the ones, we are the c64 scene and we are the strongest because I love jan, I love bob, I love mahoney... I love to mobb lars... and so on, they love me back in a way that I can feel in my life, it is totally great, we are family you see, we are the weird ones, the ones doing this, we are great!) still beating the life in something strange and do me a favour and not let me have a hard time here... I think it is the perfect demo to post this on because I, you and all know this is a insane great demo... you won and it is great... I salute you... Ask the coders, would it be cool to make the effects and not all the transitions? And will we break the hardware more than what we do... we need to do that... in my mind! I am just a fool, but you know what? I stand for me, I stand tall above normal, abnormal... and I ask... what do we do in order to make this scene really be something for us to have in the next 30 years too... we are the best in the world at what we do... Triad - you made a fantastic demo... I just want to use the time to make a disqussion about the lot...
I want to be in the old peoplehome and do c64 demos... with transitions that will not hapen! With edge and striking moodsetters that might happen!
just me, PAL |
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Almighty God
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 18 |
mmmmh, really it's a extrange post. And you have the question and you have your own answer to it with "another begining". I think that the greatest of it is that we can have
both and both and different styles are great and both are necesary in da scene, I love transitions demos and I love others too, both can be as great. Scene is all of that. Probably after Booze Designs great work that we all know a new age for transitions demos start as they push all of us up... But I think that "Another begining" prove that it's not all about transitions... Yin and Yang both are necesary to me enjoy the scene... And I do not really see your complain or way to see this. Do not think to much, enjoy... |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Open mind? Here you go.
This is a matter of taste.
I prefer more abstract demos like Revolved which are closer to art and what is in my heart, than 'fun' demos with just quotes from movies & pop culture, and personal references which make them 'disconnected' for those that are not in 'teh club' - yes, I am talking about your demos, PAL. I believe there are more people into art and abstract in the scene, they just get jammed down by the rest. But we are there.
I also like demos which have something to say, but these are rare nowadays, we used to have demos about serious subjects, now it's mostly friendly, safe, nice, childish, cool. And (shamelessly stolen quote) cool is only 3 letters away from fool. And the fact that you cannot critisize each other anymore without being spit at - that's fucking weak.
So, like I said before, matter of taste. We have different, I think you need to accept it. But at the moment you start rant like this... sorry, man. Most of the reasons you put down are just the reasons why I am not a fan of Offence demos, and I like the 'soulless' (sic!) demos you don't. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
tl;dr, I just do demos the way I like 'em, and enjoy the demos others do in different ways. People are always complaining that I don't do huge trackmos full of design and transitions, but I'm just not that much into that. For me each routine counts as its own, no matter if it's in a big production or not. But I think it's nice that others make the big, consistens art-demos, cuz then I don't have to. :) |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
Dude, just make your demos however the fuck you like.
You're never going to be able to please everyone, and you really should be making them for yourself in the first place. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
I think i agree. We need more authenticity.
But eventhough some are capable of doing that, the scene has also been about 'winning'.
The idea of a mainstream demo is quite a dynamic one, it changes throughout the years. Some punks with balls will shed a new light every now and then, which affects the mainstream direction a bit.
I don't think it's a dead end, no need to worry. Be innovative and authentic.
(Imho Revolved is a summary of popular demos from the last decade, crafted with care and class. Nothing to downplay on that one.) |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
I definitely agree from an artistic perspective, and I promise that enough people are going to hate our next demo for the scene to keep going a few days longer. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
I love the Triad demo, just so that all know that... I really love it! I am talking about the direction of demos... It is like the parts of Kriburst, if I help him it get polished and there is less edge left... In fact I struggle with this a lot... because one can always do more - but it get so smooth and in the end it is just less... When I make presentations I just drop all the vipes, but the next bloke has all these smooth vipes on in powerpoint... but mine is often more effective with the hard punsh cut, people tend to respond. I can see their heads move, their eyes stare and so on... What I say is that most movies hold scenes, they work hard on every shot like a demopart or effect, then they cut between them, they do not fade move and transition all the time because it outplays its role and gets very smooth and just a blur in the end... I like this disqussion, and it were never ment as a rant or a setup for our demos beeing better or anything like that... I just feel that when one use more time on the things between the effects than on the effects it gets a bit weird in a way. |
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Almighty God
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 18 |
"the things between the effects" it's not and own bit of code effect or chalenge linking things smooth and properly, maybe you should see it from a coder point of view. |
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v3to
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 150 |
i like variety. easy as that. imo there is no perfect demo, there are too much ways to show what can be made with a limited machine. and it is always a compromise.
i love revolved and i also love trick and treat. cannot say which one is really better, because they are too different in concept. and also hope that the c64scene won't do the same consistence-styleguide-orgy (with few exceptions) like the pc scene. if this would ever happen i am sure things will get boring. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 447 |
Make demo, any demo. Keep scene alive. Infinite diversity in infinite configurations. Personally, I am motivated by new tech stuff, not so much the art approach.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
I agree with PAL, too much design and consistency and transition these days, also too much of the hires resolution nazism which makes effects boring because of what can be done in hires or multicolor and at 50fps has been done a zillion times.
Give me "in your face, my balls are bigger than your balls" demos, fast pace, cool effects, make me dizzy. Give me big pixels. Give me back the mid 90's :) |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 231 |
what's the problem with demos with a decent flow and design to it? does it take pressing space and killer effects to make jewels of demos?
after all everyone has his own style and does his thing differently. i don't think we're immitating eachother.
i could say revolved looks like sander involved..
and i could say that i don't like rough stuff. i don't really like this arty noise stuff that is totally the opposite of others by intention.
i like demos that please my eye, either with killer effects or with just a decent flow.
there will always guys who shift the state of art into other directions. and that's fine. |
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Slammer
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 416 |
If a demo part is a present then the transitions is the wrapping. The wrapping is by no means unimportant - it can make a great product better or an average product feel more exclusive. Would you buy an expensive whisky, if it was shipped in a plastic bottle? Would you always spot high quality wine if it was in a carton?
So I wouldn't blame anybody for using wrapping. Instead valid complains could be that the present wasn't as good as expected or missing, or the wrapping was unoriginal, dull or predictable. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
Slammer: Would you like to see movies with 20% actual shots and action and story? or is the whole of the movie making industry right when they do NOT have 80% of their big motion pictures filled with sinus moving colors and smooth transitions? Would you like to see a actor blow the head of the bad dude or would you like to see a transition from a lame arse nosepicking scene over to a lame arse picking in the ear shoot, in slowmotion that is because they wait for the drive to load? I just ask? Because I want to see the great balls of fire and be blown away and not just look at paint dry! AND - I MUST SAY - It is great the first time, the seccond time it is kinda great too, the third time it is ok... the fourth time if made greater it is also ok... but man the fifth time... dane, you alone can not save the transition scene... you have done for so long now... you are insane... but now... let us see the cock in the pussy and not just the door-curtain blowing in the wind in the entrance of the room where they fuck and listening to sound of poundring inside behind there somewhere... let us violate the c64! Let's be barbarians and not just librarians! |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
I love smooth transitions! I also love transitionless Offence megademos!
Pal, so you think transitions are boring? thats fine you know ;)
You make it sound like everybody is focusing on transitions, you
even say they are killing the scene!
I beg to differ, I don't see any group truely focusing on it.
For a coder EoD set the standard with seriously cool fades and it
adds so much to the flow of a demo. Other coders got inspired by it
and some have built their own great transition fx.
And yes it's fun! Not boring!
Take CL13 and the trailblazer/vector/chessboard parts, all standalone
awesome effects, but having all those fluent transitions with
music-sync made it a total jawdropper.
It's not killing the scene, it's making it even more awesome!
Look at the DS13 demos, so much diversity, same thing with stuff
released in 2012.
Transitions are definitely not a must, but I applaud the ones
that put effort in em. Keep it up!
What I do find boring is a 4 disk demo without a siderequester!!!
hah! ;) |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
But the people coding demos on the c-64 are so great, clever and insane and if they were actually coding effects rather than a year spent on transitions the effects would be so much greater... of course I am all wrong but I still believe that. Take the last cruizer part from ds... man it is insane! Why? I do not know, but maybe, just maybe because he made that and that only and not used 80% of his time moving the squares and lame arse line drawers and fill with a girly color and then blopp it to another girly color and then make some circles from the square and then make this and that and all the shit.... he just did it... BANG... in your face... in your arse.... in your fucking mind instantly and it were great.... ok... pixel here! Cruizer - you are a real man!! Hit hard and leave! You do not even do the small pillow talk session... you just fuck the shit out of us and boooommm your out of sight... not even trying to be nice, just a real man! Proud of you sir!
In all big corperations today one do outsorce the transition work... when disney make a big new movie they paint the key-frames and the people in india make the in-betweens - on the c64 disney is making the in-betweens and not get time for the keyframes! |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1089 |
I think Cruzer's single effect demo is super cool because Cruzer has mad skills! I think he should quit his job to focus on doing more great stuff ;))
So we are actually getting both and thats cool. if nobody did transitions, we'd lose that part of the spectrum. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
I think he has mad skillz too but also he do use his skillz at what he is best at... that is a big difference right there and some of my point... he just fuck you hard... (lol... i love this) |
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Slammer
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 416 |
Pal: But isn't it more interesting focusing on what's missing. In your movie example - If you want action, then complain that there is too little action. If you want acting, then complain that there is too little acting.
A demo with only transitions doesn't do it for me. But a good transition leading to a great effect can really enhance the effect, so a general banning of transitions won't get my vote. Sometimes transitions can be too predictable, or too long, badly chosen or don't fit the context, but thats another case. I enjoy both demos with and without transitions, 'Safe VSP' being an example of the latter (Example carefully chosen not to be disqualified for promoting own interests) |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Slammer and mixer, spot on. Creating transitions between part by part can take more time but still allows the coder to tweak individual parts. This is not too much a hindrance at all. Even just a fade to black and defade to next part makes the whole thing feel more slick and barely requires any time to code the inbetween |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
You are wrong here... the transitions do take time and see it from a coders perspective... it do take much time and it do take time from the actual effect coding... but ofcourse if you are pantaloon you just did it before someone even thought of it in a way... but the hours... Like the part in matrix demo from bob... I want bob to code parts and effects... If you BOB code transitions I will kill you! I will strangle you with your utlagte tarm! |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
Sorry to the ulagte-tarm society if I skweeze their tarm on my last comment |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
Like others said, I think its purely a matter of personal taste.
There are trends in the scene, always have been, right now its transition overdose, but thats not a bad thing if done right (which means something more creative than boring raster transitions).
I also have to respond to Oswald - I consider the late 90's the "dark ages" of C64 demos, full of ugly attempts to copy popular PC effects in super lo-res, so happy that time is over! :)
From a coder's perspective (although its been a while since I've actually done anything new) I tend to think about transitions while working on the effects.
Yes, working on transitions & linking of a fast-pace trackmo takes lots of time & effort, but its an interesting challenge, at least for me. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
I see it from a coders perspective as well :-) transitions take nowhere near as long as coding the actual parts. Even the non fade to black ones only require previous screen content in next part for testing purposes and then to remove and link after. Which is merely interleaving previous code with next tgen removing after. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
You are wrong again... 16 sides of demo parts in two years say it all... so maybe it is all lame, nothing you like in our stuff, maybe it is all shit, just waste of time and totally wasted for you, but it is not for us or me... I can look at one part out of the 200 parts we made and released and I enjoy every single one... massive... but with transitions totally super smooth way... my best guess is 5 sides... then again... and less in each part. Maybe that is what the scene want? I do not know! I know I want the strawberry and not the leaves... but again, i am just a fool... I simply know that some of the strange demos on here made me come back to the c64 after 19 years away... this is the scene... dansa in is the shit! PC demos... who cares nowadays, it is just boooring... ok it can be great if there is a story but maaaaannnn they look so simular... why do we want to simuralise our efforts?
A woman wants to be fucked, cared for and be loved, she do not really care about what your make-up brand is! |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
PAL. Each to their own. You are entitled to your opinion but to say I am wrong is rather wrong dont you think? If transitions are so time consuming for an individual than fair enough, but if it is not then why not use it? :-) |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
Wrong again... because if you see the demo groups doing the effort that I respect on that.... you will see that the demos are seldom and they do not release much... it is a fact, dude! |
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Kristian
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126 |
I haven't been involved in any demo-making since the mid 90's, so I am probably on thin ice here, but isn't some of the point with transitions to get rid of the dead boring loading- and decrunchingtimes and what not? How often do you see movies with a 30 seconds break between each scene? ...loading...
Press space is fine, I'm all for that, but transistions do more than just fade in and out parts... they take away some of the boring parts of a demo... the waiting.
To really compare it to movies I guess you would have to load the new part in the background so it could start immediately when the previous part is finished. That way I could do fine without transistions.
What bothers me a lot more than transistions is lack of consistency. I'd love to see more demos following a red line through the production. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Please read my previous post. If transitions take too much time for someone then fair enough. If they dont then use it:-). What is so wrong with that? |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
I want to be surprised! I think modern and in fashion demos are just smooth... I want someone to punch me in the face, then do the finger to the eye totally from nowhere, then after that he just stand over me and puke on me and then he lift me up and throw me in the bin, close the lid and then put a big stone on top... but he then do not stop, he lift a car up with his crane and let it smash me and then after that he just spray the whole erea with nucluar waste and let me rotten... I want that rather than the all I know what this will be and now move up and now some colors... mirror... powder my face and all... I am sorry I think we are getting lame... it is no edge in that it is mostly just really booring! AND NOTHING WITH OUR DEMOS! I just think if I see these transition demos without bigger effects more I will just think, hey... I am a beast, I want to be that... where can I bee that... gausian blur all you want... but please show the effect that will say... wow.... in the end I will find the smooth motion of transitions so booring... and after that you all will too... and then it is too late... it happened to amiga and the pc... let us be more... the all likes or love this is bad! |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
PAL, not releasing new stuff often has nothing to do with investing time in transitions, IMO.
To be honest, I cant understand how you manage to release so much stuff in such short periods of time.
Even if I used 100% of my (very little) spare time on the C64, I'll never reach a pace even close to this!
It sux, but we're not teenagers anymore with nothing to do except go to school & code demos.
I wish I could do that again, but such is life :) |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Everyone has their opinion. I personally opt for the loading while displaying part then transition to the next. PAL has a point if it means that transition coding takes too much time, but if it does not then go for it. What do others think of this? And by no means am I critisising any demo that does not use this approach. Why be stuck to the press space for next part approach? Every coder has the right to do what they want. I like both aspects so dont take it as a bitching. |
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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 358 |
I think, there's something rumbling in the demo scene now. I mean that people think about how to make demos more artistic and experiment with that. There were other times not long ago, where the demos were less original. Also there were many cool comebacks like that of Censor Design (the last one) and today there are more groups active than in lets say 2004-2010. Maybe sometimes it's too much about smooth transitions and less focus on the real hard effects maybe sometimes its to codepron, but time will show how people find there balance.
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1926 |
*I* think our scene is not all demos! They are highly appreciated and all - still ...
"Scene" has cracks, intros, sids, graphics in totally weird formats, tools and originality at many "edges". Many of these never seen or mentioned on a _demo_...
Open your mind and focus on more than just the demo at end.
We want to play as well - code more games and protect them - just for me. The unprotected real oldschool stuff is handled by others anyhow and this rgcd cart stuff recently seen is just boring (to even look at - not judging their quality). :)
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
I think I'd be the happiest man alive if I ever reach the point in my life to think about such 'problems'... :-) |
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Axis/Oxyron
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2007
Posts: 91 |
If I get it right, we have two discussions in one.
First, does coding transitions take too much time and second are transition based demos boring.
Definitely doing transition based demos consumes an immense amount of coding time.
Not only for coding the transitions itself.
There are so many jobs to be done to make all this possible: optimize part memory, optimize loading-times, generate data on the fly, make streamable fileformats, move stuff in memory from A over B to C, glitchfree IRQ-switches, code parts IRQ-based for background loading, etc...
So, just doing simple transitions doesnt help around that. All these meta-tasks are still there to be done.
Our problem is, that we try to copy the style of early 90´s Amiga demos. But a lot of things that can be done in 10 minutes on Amiga can occupy a C64 coder for 3 or 4 days, due to hardware limitations.
To the point of transition based demos beeing boring.
Transitions can be a good tool to enhance the overall appearance of a demo.
As Kristian stated out, they try to hide the most ugly part of our beloved bread box. That the serial bus is so damn slow and loading a killer-demopart takes ages.
But they can also lead to total boredom, if used wrong.
We suffered from that in Toxyc Taste
You cant just ride on the 'flow' for 10 minutes without beeing boring.
You need a lot of trickery to keep the audience attention alive.
Changing the style/theme of the music in the right places, change the pace over time, add breaks, add moments of surprise, ...
Perhaps thats the reason why some people call our demos: incoherent ;o)
You cant make it right for everyone.
So, all in all I´m very happy. There have never been such a wide range of different demo styles around.
We have Flow-/transition-based demos, art-based demos, oldschool-/retro-demos, onefilers, tech-demos and many many more.
So, just do whatever demo you like. But DO IT!
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Stone
Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 172 |
What Axis said. |
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Bob
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 71 |
Well interesting discussion ;)
Personally... I like techy stuff..blown away fx etc.. but thats mee :)
if too many people do one style of demo (no matter what style it is) it will tend to be booring after a while, and the focus will naturally be shifted away from that.
I don't think we need to worry about this, it is a simple law of the nature.
I am very glad that we have such a diversity of demos that has been released lately. And the compos are real Prime Time Super Bouts between the Giants, If I wasn't involved in the Demo Scene... I wouldn't be able to resist this anymore... THIS STUFF WAKES UP THE DEAD AND DAMNED, THEY WANT A PIECE OF IT TOO!
Ehh.. That is the reason why we returned }8)=)
The greatness of this scene is our DIVERSITY, and that is the KEY FOR THE SURVIVAL OF THE C64 SCENE, and also the explanation why it is growing and I surely hope that people will continue to keep this fire we have on the scene ;) and as AXIS said! just DO IT. BUT DO IT!
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
Edit: I wrote this message after reading all the posts in this thread. But when I re-checked PAL's messages, I saw that he wasn't making statements like I said. It's my bad. I just didn't want to change my message but add this comment. Please read on skipping that "statement" parts.
PAL, you know opinions are just opinions. We already knew how you like/prefer demos because you show your style very often lately and we are all happy about it. But when you start saying things like "tracmos are killing the scene", this is not an opinion anymore, this is a clear statement.
Check my comment for "Trick and Treat". I was almost sleeping (literally!) at X'2012 compos. But i still tried to be fair and wrote my comment emphasizing it was my opinion and probably my own "problem". What would you think if i've written "what? hours of scrolling images? this demo made me sleep. this kind of demos may kill our scene. we need faster demos with better transitions.". Your statement (which is just your opinion) made me feel that way. Even if I prefer tracmo style demos personally, i like Offence demos. Not because of the fun factor or surprises, because that are "good", sometimes way better than just good. And I don't care if your demos are trackmos or not. If overall feeling is positive, it's ok, if not, it's not. But if you ask me, "press space" demos used to exist, because we didn't know any better on this platform. They mostly disappeared, because we learned to make better ones. Please notice that i started saying "if you ask me". This is not a statement. ;)
Revolved has no shocking effects, i've already written this at my comment saying "equally good with the 2nd place demo. this demo has very smooth transitions which is a very hard thing to do. but missing thing was the killer demo effects. in 2013, you really need one or two at least. still very polished. congratulations.".
So, we are able to see what you see. But we don't rate demos with your standards but our own. I hope you get my point.
Also please keep in mind that this scene would have died earlier if it has followed a personal idea of any of us. It's still alive because everybody is making their stuff with their own way. Thank god... |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
I have voted 9 for the triad demo because it is really a masterful demo with so much care and love in and the hours spent must be so massive, it runs smooth and it is really good. I am sorry again I guess about me beeing so into these demo things and pasionate about it, when one try to write with passion on here and it gets bad in a way, ironi is gone, the smile when saying a thing is gone no emotions from me, just me thinking and hammering down on the keys. I am sorry for that. Triad and bepp you made a fantastic demo and I did not meen to put it down, I were talking more about the way of making demos... and there, boing I am the one doing something I myself hate and all when others tell me... SORRY! I am a man and I stand for this, really sorry... because what you should only be doing is to be so happy about your demo and winning DS and all... it were the best and most worked on demo there. All make demos, crack a game, make a tune or what ever! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
Quote:tl;dr, I just do demos the way I like 'em
indeed =) i can say for me though that the type of demostuff i like to watch does not necessarily match what i like to code. and there is also stuff that i had a lot of fun coding, but which i will never put into a demo because its either an old idea or just boring to watch in general. and then there is stuff that i didnt like to code at all, but without them the demo would look a lot more crap (all the transition shit comes to mind there =P).
one thing though: "I really think our scene will die if we try to make more and more and more transition based demos, I really do think so..."
i really think that the time of "press space" is over now. infact it was boring already in 1996. if transitions and consistant design are what will kill the scene (as if), then i will happily help with killing it for good.
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
This is an interesting topic.
I also have quite a bit of difference between what I like to code and what I like to watch.
When watching demos, I prefer the smooth, seamless transition style, preferably coupled with great effects and graphics.
But when coding myself? HELL NO, nothing more boring than sitting with IRQ-loaders, trying to make sure there is not a single frame out of place when transitioning from one effect to another, spending countless hours coding some god-damn move the graphics out the sideborder transition that is onscreen for 5 seconds.
But the problem is that most people (and of course that includes me, that's the worst thing) nowadays have been getting used to the smooth-total-experience, ever since Edge of Disgrace raised the bar to a insane level.
So my choices are, either code demos that most people won't enjoy (and I can't blame them, since I feel the same way), or soldier through and code the polished transition stuff even though it is not fun (not an option for me) or simply skip coding demos altogether.
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Killsquad
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2005
Posts: 17 |
Quoting Groepazi really think that the time of "press space" is over now.
I beg to differ. I can't wait to get my hands on the press space version of "Time Machine". There's an perfect example of how a press space demo is still valid today.
Besides that, what Axis said.
"So, just do whatever demo you like. But DO IT!". I love all them demos.. well, almost all. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
a demo that allows to hold the parts extra long as an option is not a "press space" demo to me. (a bunch of demos from HCL have had that options already, btw)
Quote:"So, just do whatever demo you like. But DO IT!". I love all them demos.. well, almost all.
ofcourse. the only ones i really dont like are those that show all too obvious that little effort went into making them. converted gfx, effects that were old in 1986 and its buggy too. no thanks :) |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 248 |
interesting topic... i want to share my thoughts....
transitions != transitions... they can be very different from demo to demo, and i think that a transition in demo1 can be very inappropriate in demo2. it depends on the style / theme / art of the demo.
i would say that transitions are a must nowaydays. but this does not mean that they need to be a masterpiece of code. even stupid $d020/$d021 fading can look nice, at the right position of the demo, when the style / theme / art allows it.
of course demos are a matter of taste. i can just speak for myself. i am a bit woried that we will have too much "EoD" styled demos in future. Ofcourse, EoD, is perfect coded and maybe will never be overtoped coding wise by another demo. But the thing is the style / theme / art is not my taste.
EoD is like an hospital to me. Clean, accurate, germ-free, scientific, technical perfect.
But I like it Grunge, mysterious, rough, impenetrable, enchanted etc., and this in an aesthetic and maybe even philosophical way with a story behind.
And thats what i would like to code too. =)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
"transitions != transitions... they can be very different from demo to demo"
and infact the only way to avoid doing transitions is to do it like cruzer does :o) |
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Slammer
Registered: Feb 2004
Posts: 416 |
Yes, some transitions are really different:
The Bubble Tale |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
This is rich. Pages after pages of complaints and wishes about how demos should be and how transitions steal all the time from coders. As if repeating your opinions over and over ever makes a difference...to anyone but yourself.
You know what - log off go make a demo about it instead! |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
feels like you're reacting to all the EoD and transition criticism. Opinions are not to change anything & ppl like to share 'em. Infact after Datastorm I was also like to open a topic about demos these days. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
People should do demos in any way they see fit. After all c64 coding is merely only something done in spare time just for fun. The diversity makes it all the more interesting. Press space demos or not etc |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
it's like demos have lost their balls, remember when Reflex got away with a loading screen displaying "black screen <timer>" ? and it was cool :) |
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Pantaloon
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 124 |
make demos and stop posting on forums!! |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Yes Oswald, it was hard not to react after the 8th or so namedrop...
The intention has never been to kill a scene, but instead do things that we think look and sound good and are a challenge to us. I guess the positive aspect about being referred to as mainstream is that it has had effect on others.
Anyway, nevermind. Every minute I spend on this forum is one minute less I can actually produce something...that will give you more anxiety. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
You are taking it from the wrong perspective. EoD is mostly being talked of as a trend setter and something that can not be beaten. You can never please everyone and even those saying disliking this or that I bet have high respect for what you have done. It's a milestone like Dutch Breeze. Peace :) |
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
Yeah, I think you took this the wrong ay Dane. Of all the mentions of EoD in this thread, only Peacemaker has any negative words associated with it.
I think almost everyone agrees that EoD is an instant classic, arguably the best C64 demo ever (just look at the Top Demos chart to the right...)
What it did is set a quality standard that many (me included) feel they can never reach, but that is not criticism of the demo, quite the opposite! |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 248 |
Erhm... No, you got me wrong. Please re-read my post. I just say that the theme is not my kind of taste. But ofcourse from a coders point of view i know that the demo is the best one ever made.
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I hope some of it will fuel you to go home and make something even better or something that is more like your vision of what a demo should be.
It is tempting sometimes to just put my feet up and say that I'm done with demos - achievement unlocked! But then there's always the vision of the Next One, when we start swapping ideas, screenshots and suddenly it's a mad dash for some deadline and some party all over again. And that, strangely enough, is what I really like about making demos.
But this...
"dane, you alone can not save the transition scene... you have done for so long now... you are insane... "
This really pissed me off. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
And again I am sorry, like I wrote everything gets out the wrong way on here without human gesture and the love and smile and so on when saying stuff like that... it was really about you being so great and all... Here in norway we say to someone when they are supergreat... you are just insane!!!! as in great super uber... I will stop now, it gets nowhere and I hate myself for writing anything about this topic in the first place. SORRY AGAIN - if I could I would just delete the whole thread... maybe I can? I do not know.... it gets so mad and bad every time... guess we are very passionate about demos on here! Sorry... white flag held high up in the air waving, forgive me... I am just a fool... never ment it like this... Goodnight! See you all at a demo-party. |
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TWW
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 545 |
TL;DR and too much male bonding.
Instead of saying what I don't like I'd like to offer my sincere opinion of the greatest demo/C64 moments in my life:
First there was the Smash Designs remake of Future Crews PC demo from 1994: "second reality".
The second and also the one who topped that was "Dawnfall" by Graham/Oxyron. Pure code evilness.
Other then that I'd like to mention the NUFLI Movie player by X-Bow is out of this world (Not a demo / stock box but fuck yeah).
There are others which blew my head off but these are for me the most memorable ones where my jaw hit the ground.
Now strangely enough to me neither second reality nor dowfall are among the top 10... So in short my taste differs from the general popular conviction and thank god for that having in mind what they say; Society is getting more and more feminine every day (Manboobs, movie crying, infant trolley pushing, obsessive focus on children, the color pink WHICH IS NOT A MAN COLOR, "man" bags and last but not least GANGNAM STYLE). So if you like any of these things and at the same time enjoy lenghty/colorful transitions, chances are you have some supressed femininity hiding under your chipped exterior. But hey, it's ok! It's 2013! The Mayans got it all wrong! For the rest of us we still have the Discovery Channel.
The defense has no further witnesses.
Now let's talk about who can squeeze the most pixels in a line within 120 cycles. Coz that's what the coding sceene is about IMHO... |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: |
*yawns* what's up with the forum scene nowadays? |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 248 |
20 years ago we were arguing about cracks on the boards. no games left nowaydays, so we need to find another topic for the "new boards", the forum =)
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: |
Quoting TWWNow strangely enough to me neither second reality nor dowfall are among the top 10... So in short my taste differs from the general popular conviction and thank god for that having in mind what they say; Society is getting more and more feminine every day (Manboobs, movie crying, infant trolley pushing, obsessive focus on children, the color pink WHICH IS NOT A MAN COLOR, "man" bags and last but not least GANGNAM STYLE). So if you like any of these things and at the same time enjoy lenghty/colorful transitions, chances are you have some supressed femininity hiding under your chipped exterior. But hey, it's ok! It's 2013! The Mayans got it all wrong! For the rest of us we still have the Discovery Channel.
ROFL! The epic CSDb discussions of Valhalla. |
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Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504 |
Quoting PAL
what about make someone puke... make them hate your demo...
You should consider joining Metalvotze then :-) |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 440 |
Quote: Quoting PAL
what about make someone puke... make them hate your demo...
You should consider joining Metalvotze then :-)
MentalKotze von MetalVotze :D |
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Carrion
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317 |
well done PAL... well done
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/4/14/129157477..
for
trolling like a boss! |
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TPM
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 |
i love transitions, the more the better.. so there's a market :) |
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Testa
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 197 |
people stop complaining, the C64 has a long history and it has brought great creativity. A well balanced demo with hightech effects, nice graphics, a great soundtrack and smooth transitions is in my eyes the top of the c64 evolution!
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
Pervosextext is the top of the c64 evolution, no question about it! |
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BHF
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: |
The Urine sinus waveplotter ! PD ftw!! |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 271 |
carrion... please... fuck off, you are an hemorrhoid in the arse and we all know it... you had to come in after my white flag... hit when down that is known as... You know what? You are just lame. I said sorry this discussion/topic went all wrong, I must still stand for it, because I started it and did it all wrong... after I admit that, you come strolling along whistling your dumb shit, but we all knew that would come, you are just so predictable... we almost bet on when and how here... maybe you are a ok dude when meeting in real life but on-line you are just an arse and a hemorrhoid. Maybe even worst than what I have shown to be... but I just put on the cream and say... sorry dudes... I did it the wrong way! I can not do anything else... so hit me one more time carrion... and even more... just carry on with your shit. |
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Carrion
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317 |
why so serious?
..but you know what? you are right.
sorry. |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2581 |
What a nice word, much too seldom to read i a forum thread: "sorry".
Peace! |
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Glasnost
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2011
Posts: 26 |
PAL in many ways i agree with you... I like artistic and hard tech content in demos too, but as axis pointed out, the loading and decrunching of a hardcore part takes time and that time somehow leaves a gap if nothing is filled in. Without some kind of transition the demo would lack flow, as most demos from my (first) active period in the early 90's did.
I would like to mention my favourite demo, as examples where the transition effects is successfull
For me nothing beats Andropolis which creates its own world with a great artistic atmosphere and awesome effects. The transitions here gives a good presentation and underlines the artwork.
I also like alot the fast pace of Edge Of Disgrace, where transitions in no way fill up the demo, just fill up small gaps, which HCL seemed to have worked hard on to keep short.
Not to mention some of the nice and artistic transitions that make Comalight 13 so entertaining. I just love the little animal crawling around and into the jawdropper of a greetings/turndisc part. A good example of an artistic transition.
Even if transitions also is important, somehow that part is always the last that is done by the coders..
....Wonder why? :o) zzzZZZ
Greetings and best regards from Glasnost..
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11359 |
"I also like alot the fast pace of Edge Of Disgrace, where transitions in no way fill up the demo"
i have to disagree. the transitions are wonderful, long, and some of the parts in there run for way too long to go in line with "fast pace" =) personally i like it because it manages to keep that laid back feeling of a press-space demo (that is generally true for recent hcl demos) =) |
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FATFrost
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 211 |
I like demo parts the I can leave on all day... But I also like trackmos too as they were a kick up the arse to Amiga dudes who said the c64 was lame, so I can see how those transitions became common in our demos. Pal is talking about fulfilment and meaning and individuality and not just being clones if the last with a cherry on top. I actually get very bored of musicians who copy all the other musicians and make 'popular' music. In the real world I am as underground as possible when I listen to music, but eventually they go mainstream and popular too just like our demo effects... So in the end we just need to keep striving to put something out there before someone else puts the cherry on top. Oh and Sander is right, it was all about competition, and still is for lots of sceners, but some sceners still just want to be creative and have fun. After all, life is too serious? ;)
Love you all,!!
/FatFrost |
