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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
a plea from an old schooler
please dont use modified PAL emulating screenshots for pictures on this site.
people may want to use this site to download unmodified c64 art in gif or png format with pure pixel definition.
if they want to see the stuff in highly debatable pal emulation mode people can download the PRG files and view them in that mode on an emulator.
Thanks
Steve |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
That's how cold it is INSIDE my house during winter :( |
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molebrain
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2010
Posts: 4 |
We have weather like that in Pittsburgh too...seriously |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quote: First, that's not the point of what's being discussed ;)
Second, the filtered stuff is nothing like how Ste, myself and quite a few other people I know saw it. I think Ste would've noticed while he was drawing that magical new colours were appearing and while some stuff did attempt to use PAL blending the demos we saw with it in didn't actually produce the effect they had in mind.
If other people with different TVs saw different then that's the whole point we're getting at, you cant foist your memory of something on everyone else despite them disagreeing and still tell them they're wrong. That's why I'm happy that there's the possibility of a compromise.
Pete
"foist your memory"? Dude, what the hell are you talking about? My 1084 is right here! And it's actually *being used*, as hard as that may be for you to believe! And it shows the picture pretty much like an Emulator with PAL (not perfect, but much much much much better than without!)
I dunno about you, but *could* it be that after 20 years not using a c64 *your* memory might actually be somewhat misty? 8)
The PAL-Effect is there - always was, always will be. On Monitors or TVs, doesn't matter. There's no way in hell you had any output device without that effect, cause, like the name says, it is *inherent* in the technological concept of PAL (Phase ALTERNATING Lines - hence the colorblending!) for anything that has an FBAS-Plug... Or S-Video... Or HF....
Only RGB would not show any PAL-blending, and there is no c64 that is able to output RGB until Chameleon is finally released! ;-) |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quote: It's ok, my memory isn't so bad that I don't remember what I saw in front of me. PAL blending is a reality but I think sometimes the emulation version is WAY over what it should be.
Pete
Having worked on countless NUFLIs in both emulator and on real hardware, I actually agree with you on that. The current PAL emulation blurs too much horizontally, you notice this especially in Hires. But the point is that it *still* looks way more real than the emulator without PAL emulation! ;-)
There's also a lot of variation among different VIC-Chips and CRTs, you know, it also matters how you set the dials on your monitor. It's pretty much the same as with the SIDs varying sound... That's why there'll simply *never* be a consensus on what the perfect palette (or picture rendition) is. Still: Screenshots with PAL are still much closer to any c64 setup that ones without - since there simply is no c64 setup in the world that would show brown and blue alternating lines as such!
But I actually do agree there should be a 16color version. Maybe as an added download? I personally would prefer PAL any time as a screenshot... |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
@Deekay, to reply to your two previous posts ;) and for fear of repeating myself again...
Undeniably PAL blending occurs, I studied it and YUV encoding and some other image related stuff when I worked for Philips. I've also done a fair bit of Atari 800 coding recently and used it extensively on there to get software screen modes with lots of colours on screen (alternating the 16 hue mode with the 16 luma mode)
Yes, a lot of images look more "correct" with PAL emulation, some don't (with the current implementation at least) and the only thing we wanted to see was that the artist decides how something is supposed to look (be it with or without any blending or a certain palette) and that those raw pixels of an un-blended image not be lost by applying a filter to them that can't be reversed to re-apply at a later date.
I'm personally quite happy to look at any image in any mode/palette anyone tells me to as long as they think it looks right :)
*edit*
Just a little edit as I'm unsure why all the psychic or secretly spying on me people think it's been 20+ years since I last saw/owned/used a C64... :P |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Quoting JCB
Just a little edit as I'm unsure why all the psychic or secretly spying on me people think it's been 20+ years since I last saw/owned/used a C64... :P
Oh, I dunno... Prolly all this talk about the good old times of Compunet and "back then" coupled with the fact that neither of you has released anything on the c64 for 20 years! ;-) In general, all the past tense in your postings is a bit irritating when you're an active user..
That said, I'd really love to see some new STE stuff. Lethal Weapon 2 is damn fine pixel craftsmanship! |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Well, as far as being active or producing anything, This is nearly finished (I should upload a new video really) as well as some other stuff and it seems like you're saying my having produced most of my C64 stuff in 87 makes my opinion less valid than certain people on here who may even have only started in the last couple of years? I've even said a few times through the thread that despite not producing new prods I still owned a C64 in one form or another till quite recently.
And it's all past tense because that's when this stuff (that this thread was about) was done, sorry for being an old guy :P
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
now that is weird. i thought i had done 250 odd frames of c64 capable POP sprite animation. enough for a whole game that was never released on a 64, at the end of last year. perhaps i entered an alternate reality. how strange.
oh and just for the record. i still have my original c64, 1541 and koalapad, in my desk 2 feet from my right knee as i type this. its the one machine i have that would never get binned. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
"you're saying my having produced most of my C64 stuff in 87 makes my opinion less valid than certain people on here who may even have only started in the last couple of years?"
lemme help you, he said this:
"the past tense in your postings is a bit irritating when you're an active user.." |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362 |
Thanks, Oswald! ;-)
You wanted to know why everybody thought that, I told you why I did. Simple as that. And yes, when you are/were actively involved in developing the Pepto-Palette (we used a damn vectorscope to measure this!) and PAL-emulation and even getting something like black bleed (see emusuxX0r ) emulated, always in search for the perfect emulation quality, it is a bit strange when some oldschoolers come around to tell you that they never saw all this back then 20 years ago.
Memory can be hazy, eyes are better - electronic measuring equipment is even better! 8)
You prefer 16-color screenshots, that's okay, it's your perfect right, there are good arguments for it and like said above I'm even with you on this somewhat. But don't tell me these effects are not there and that 16col screenshots look more like the real thing! ;-) |
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