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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Looking for C64 programmer [paid]
Hi everyone,
I've been developing a retro throw back game for the PC in the style of the Commodore 64. I'm working on a Kickstarter project to get it finished and I was thinking of having an actual Commodore 64 port as one of the stretch goals.
No one on the team has any live C64 programming experience so I'm putting the call out to people who might be interested in working with us. The artwork will have to be converted. Our artists try to stay as faithful to C64 specs as possible but little things can still slip through the cracks. Also you'll basically be on your own programming wise. If you're interested in the project please send me a PM and we can talk more about specifics.
Since this will be a stretch goal I can't guarantee this will go ahead even if we get funded. But I need to talk to someone in order to know how much it will cost, and thus how much to ask for in the stretch goal.
Thanks for reading my post.
~Disthron |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
It looks really nice, especially the animations. But there's always a but, you'll first have to ask yourself: 'how many compromises are my artists willing to make?'. This is a c64 @ 1mhz with a VIC chip after all. You can't frustrate a c64 programmer with lazy artistry. :) They'll have to recreate the graphics with tools that work with native specs. |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
That will be part of the job. Taking the PNG frames that the artists have made and converting them into a format the C64 can handle.
I realize that might be a pain in the ass but that's why I wasn't considering doing a port on actual hardware prior to considering crowd funding.
I do believe there are tools to convert modern images to C64 format. The programmer wouldn't have to do the art from scratch.
Also, I realize that some features may have to be dropped. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
If that's your approach, fair enough. Looking forward to the result, but only the c64 version. ;) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335 |
Game would totally rock but I'm afraid characters won't look like this in final port ;) |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 452 |
I found a video of the concept on YouTube. Edelin Portals of Doom I believe? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0VD-LjUwks
That would be an Ultima-sort of achievement in C-64. Certainly doable, but quite a complex job. I wonder how the random-element works in the game.
I've thought many times that a MUD like dungeon crawl like that would be cool. |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Quote: I found a video of the concept on YouTube. Edelin Portals of Doom I believe? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0VD-LjUwks
That would be an Ultima-sort of achievement in C-64. Certainly doable, but quite a complex job. I wonder how the random-element works in the game.
I've thought many times that a MUD like dungeon crawl like that would be cool.
Yes, that's the one.... I probably should have put that in the original post.
Anyway, the over-world is kind of like Ultima. Though it is randomly generated at the start of a new game. Towns and friendly random encounters play out more like a visual novel.
The dungeon sections, and random battles, play out like a side scrolling brawler except you are limited to 1 room at a time. The dungeon layout is also randomly generated.
I realize this might be a big job. If you know anyone who might be interested in doing something like this please direct them to this thread. If the stretch goal is successful it will be paid work. But I can't in good conscience promise it as a stretch goal without having some idea of the cost. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
The gfx definitely seems very C64-esque, apparently with the right palette and resolution used. But there appear to be some problems, such as too many sprites at the same line, and that the sprites use too many colors.
But of course, in addition to sprites, maybe some of the moving objects could be drawn into the background. It helps that the framerate of the enemies seems to be quite slow. This might require that the background gfx is simplified where the enemies move to avoid color clashes. In other words, most of the gfx might need to be redone.
So yeah, it might be doable with the right compromises. It's just hard to specify exactly which. It also depends on what's most important for the creators - e.g. that the number of enemies on the screen and their movements are the same as the original, or that they look the same.
It seems like a fun project, and it would definitely be nice to get paid for doing c64 coding. But on the other hand I have plenty of other c64 projects going on, including a game. So I doubt that I could keep the motivation. |
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PopMilo
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 146 |
Great looking project!
Extra nice idea to try making C64 port.
2D part, static screens and stuff like procedural generated world look doable. Something like 1-sprite width per character action parts also... Would require hand-redraw of lots of graphics...
Imho larger type graphics action may be doable in slower speed depending on number of colors used in rest of game.
For example grey knight on grey background with couple red lizards is kinda ok (knight as software sprite
Blue-shirt-pirate type character on green background with red lizards doesn't sound that doable in larger size...
All this with lots of extra code complexity.
On the other hand something that would keep the gameplay and style can be made for sure with little extra work on graphics.
I don't remember any game that would represent such action-adventure mix but good examples of what can be done graphics and action wise are:
Bushido:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s87go04e4A4
Narc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjVr4_gYt5E
Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles (coin up):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE6thoYJKDg&t=63
All these games use simple color-style with black (or dark grey) and white as main sprite colors with one additional color to make characters distinguishable.
You can get something like this with scripted color conversion (cut out and converted from that gif above):
Serious looking project, wish you all the best! |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Quoting CruzerSo yeah, it might be doable with the right compromises. It's just hard to specify exactly which. It also depends on what's most important for the creators - e.g. that the number of enemies on the screen and their movements are the same as the original, or that they look the same..
Having the right compromises is super important. A lot of ports back in the day tried to do too much and ended up failing miserably. Take the SMS port of Space Harrier, they tried to port make it just like the arcade and it's choppy, there are strange graphical glitches all over the place. Now look at Cosmic Epsilon on the NES, it's a lot more sparse, but at the same time it feels a lot closer to Space Harrier. The SMS has much better hardware than the NES, but it's not so much better that it could handle a full Space Harrier port.
Space Harrier SMS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGNvs1O5_qI
Cosmic Epsilon NES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-2t5FPZUKE
For this game, I'd want to have at least 3 characters (1 player 2 enemies) on screen, preferably 4. We could shrink the sprites if need be, and we could probably get away with loosing 1 direction. Though the character moves in 8 directions there are only 5 different animations. 3 of witch are mirrored.
@PopMilo That Bushido looks like just the kind of thing I was going for. It actually has MORE complex level geometry than my game. With it's multiple levels and ladders and such, though it seems to use less animation frames.
About the graphics, the guy who did the artwork for the enemies actually worked with the ZX Spectrum back in the day. So he might be able to help with that, but he'd want to be paid. So maybe if we had the code up and running we could do a kickstarter to have the graphics properly converted?
Here is a link to his Spectrum work.
http://zxart.ee/eng/graphics/authors/i/igor/ |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
@Disthron: Just wondering, what's your role in the project? |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
@Hein: Well, I've worked on a bit of code but mostly I'm the producer/game designer. It feels kind of strange, on my first game I did almost everything. Witch was a big mistake, specially in the art department. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Yup, looks like a pretty huge project, especially once you add all the other stuff from the trailer to the combat you've shown here.
As for the combat:
I'm seeing up to six characters on screen at once in the youtube trailer, which would all have to drop down to single sprite width (12 multicolour pixels), three colours per character, two of which are shared between all of them. (The T-Rex at 2:06 isn't too big if unaccompanied, but also has waaay too many colours.)
If you stuck to at most four characters on screen they could be twice as wide, but you'd still have the same colour restrictions. That solid circle behind the player for the special attack would have priority issues too, unless it was a flickery every-second-frame thing.
Drop to three characters on screen, and you gain both
-an extra colour on the player character and
-a flicker free solution for the solid circle.
(alternately, never mind the extra colour, and get back some coding time, some memory, and some CPU time)
The backgrounds look more like multicolour bitmaps than character mode, so you'd have to lose either the vertical scrolling, or all of
- the top dozen lines of the display area
- the ability for enemies to walk on from the top of the screen
- a week or three's coding time
- all but two colours of an 8x1 character area somewhere onscreen (perhaps an uninteresting bit of floor?)
Keeping the foreground archway to indicate a door at the bottom of screen would also cost you; at least one enemy would have to stay out of the bottom half of the screen whenever the enemy count's maxed out. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
CJ, just cut it back some more, instead of fighting too hard, for too little gains.
bushido posted earlyer is excellent for inspiration.
- 1 spr wide characters +1 for sword swing
- charmode with d800 a trained gfxer can do wonders
- no archway
- flash player color instead of solid circle, or flicker, or just 1 sprite for circle ?
I think gameplay is more important here than being faithful for nr of colors, and sprite width, etc.
dinosaur is problematic even with colors cut back, would eat up mem like crazy.
probably it would be wise to use a cart, instead of multiload and fighting 64k limit. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
You're probably right, Oswald. I just prefer saying "This would cost you X" to saying "this cannot be done"
It's all compromises, and decisions like "six thin enemies vs two wide enemies" are ones I'd rather leave to the game designer.
I do agree that the arch adds very little for its cost, and a char mode background should be just fine if the graphicians are worth their salt. Still think I'd lean towards keeping the left-right panning, if not the up-down. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
The main question to me is whether one would want to go full softwaresprite -route, which in theory allows 1:1 porting of the characters size-wise, and with no sprite limits, just slowing down the more (and bigger) enemies there are.
If the choppyness of the video the same as in actual PC gameplay, it might even have a nice "low FPS" aesthetic. Though I wouldn't swear that the C64 could maintain that same speed, especially when scrolling a bitmap background.
However, to avoid color clashes it would likely mean only having the same 4 colors on both the characters and background, which could get dull. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
definitly no soft sprites, color clash & speed would be problematic. one could go down the speccy route with thick black outlines to solve the clash problem, but then still color memory has to be updated, and how on earth one would scroll the bg, that alone would need something like 3,5 frames (8000 bytes + lda ,x sta ,y do the math). then double buffering eats up memory.. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Software sprite route would rock. In past many games got bend to hardware sprite constraints and their aesthetics was diminished. Or visual design was completely changed (like with Amaurote.. check Atari and Speccy version for isometric superriorness).
P.S.: Agrees with Oswald that it would be a very risky route though ;-) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Yes, colour clash on software sprites would be a pretty major issue, and the ram cost for the buffers would be quite high.
Scrolling's not such a problem though - $d011 tricks to the rescue :D |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
I've been involved in such a project before (DTV/Hummer), and my observations based on that experience:
You're going to need several people, each with experience in commercial game production for the c64, with differing specialties, to make this happen.
You will need at least one person whose sole role is to produce the graphic and/or audio elements. We had one of each on the Hummer team. IIRC, Andrew Fisher was the audio guy.
You will need at least one person who specializes in conversions and tooling, and can also do some of the grunt-work coding. This was my role on the Hummer team.
You will need a very organized project manager. If you can get Robin Harbron, you should. He did amazing work on the Hummer project.
You will need at least two engine-programmers, one with a strong background in game engine development, the other with a strong grasp of VIC-trickery. This was Adrian Gonzalez and Robin Harbron on the DTV team.
Finally, you'll need a BUNCH of dedicated testers - people who have solid experience playing CC64 games, and who can handle setting up VICE, etc...
Just my advice, your milage may vary. The DTV/Hummer team could probably be put back together for the right price if you're serious. Just don't run the end product through some cost-reduction process in HK. ;) |
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 424 |
Interesting, anything you can tell us related to the budget for the Hummer project? |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
Not really. No-one really talked about what they were making - it wasn't the reason we were doing the gig in the first place, though - all of us were friends with the hardware designer (Jeri) and were going to do the gig no matter what the terms were.
FWIW, to the original poster, I'd love to be a part of your project if it works out. I can cover tooling, and some of the organization, grunt-code, and some testing, but you'd also need some heavies to fill out the team if you want to actually complete a game of this complexity. |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
Rereading the original post, re: costs...
I'd guesstimate 5 people at about 10 weeks if it were full-time (it probably wouldn't be, people have real jobs). So more like 20 hours stretched over 16 or so weeks. 1600-2000 total man-hours.
SO say 2000, because these things always run high. 2000 man hours, at LEAST $25/hour (or no-one will take the work seriously), you're looking at about 50K for the job. And that's assuming your testers are all just in it for the credit and free copy of the game, and that you can get people who will do this highly specialized work for that rate.
Your best bet would be to tie compensation to "milestones" so you can control the progress (and so people don't get distracted by other projects with quicker pay).
Again, all just my opinions, based on my experience on one paying c64 project and real-life day job in software development. Your milage may vary. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Six, sane approach. But what is DTV/Hummer? Any videos around? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
and even more relevant: where is the crack of that hummer game? |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
You need Hummer hardware to run it, and if you do you already have the game in ROM :P |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
well you could run it in VICE :) (not much different from the recent metaldust release =P) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
As for the original price question, I'm with Six, $50k sounds about right.
My reasoning's a little different - I was thinking a good solo coder/artist, full time over a longer time period, plus a much smaller commitment from a musician. |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
I have to say, having my original post at the top of every page really throws me off tracking what's being talked about.
I have been following the thread, I just don't have a lot to comment on as you guys get into the more technical stuff.
@Six: Like other people have commented a 50K+ stretch goal on a 5K project is probably a bridge too fare. I mean, my initial guess was an additional 5K. Bringing the total up to 13K.
That being said, a few people have expressed interest in doing it just for fun. So while I can't really promise it in the Kickstarter, it may still get completed.
One last thing, some people have been talking about software sprites vs hardware sprites. Can the two be combined? That is some hardware and some software sprites. People have also been mentioning multiplexing and I'm not sure what that means. It seems to have something to do with getting more sprites on screen. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
5 people doing what ? its not like gfx and music would need as much work as code.
2 coder
1 gfxer
1 musician
in hungary the wages are not high, but $25/hour is top level management kind of money here. are you sure ? and its a "least"?:)
for $50k I would do it alone, incl gfx & music :) hence money is not the motivator! :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
yep, multiplexing is about getting more than 8 sprites on screen. basically as the screen redraws top->bottom, after a sprite has been displayed you can change its Y coord to a lower position (also X coo, gfx, color, etc) and it will be redisplayed.
usually in shooters bullets are soft sprites (characters), but afaik soft/hard was never combined to make 1 sprite. its impractical.
I think bushido tech is the best for this, with char bg. |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Quoting Oswaldusually in shooters bullets are soft sprites (characters), but afaik soft/hard was never combined to make 1 sprite. its impractical.
Oh, I wasn't thinking about combining hardware and software sprites into 1 sprite. I was talking about having some sprites be software and some be hardware. |
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 424 |
Quoting DisthronOh, I wasn't thinking about combining hardware and software sprites into 1 sprite. I was talking about having some sprites be software and some be hardware.
It sounds doable, but it's not really a good solution because of sort order. E.g. if you do the main character with software and the enemies with hardware sprites, the enemies couldn't be partially behind the main guy. |
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PopMilo
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 146 |
Quoting Oswaldfor $50k I would do it alone, incl gfx & music :) hence money is not the motivator! :)
For $50k I would quit my job and work on it till it's finished ;)
As you said $25/hour is huge in our part of world. even $5/hour can get you attention of someone willing to spend couple hours per day on something like this. With graphics and music done it would be around 1000 hours ~ $5k...
Imho something more like what Smila does is more in Scene spirit. Make it because you love it, get at least few pints out of it if others like it.
Quoting Disthron
Oh, I wasn't thinking about combining hardware and software sprites into 1 sprite. I was talking about having some sprites be software and some be hardware.
Yeah those can be used at the same time. You just can't count on lots of them. Drawing 6-7 small soft sprites (same size as hardware ones) takes almost couple frames.
It's something that can be experimented on. Lots of technical details to consider. Stuff like scrolling, number of characters in character set, color attributes, priorities...
Making a decent conversion is possible and just a question of time spent, quality and speed achieved. Here is example of 8 soft + 8 hard sprites combined . Ignore that those are in overlay combination, they could be anywhere on screen. If I remember correctly routine is running in 25fps so about 10-12fps is probably achievable in game scenario.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Utg2RfTPHU |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
The question was what would it cost to actually get it done. $25/hour was a conservative estimate for professional, experienced developers. I make almost twice that at my day job, and I'm nowhere near the top end of payscales for developers, especially niche developers.
Sure, you can round up a bunch of people, knock the bongs out of their hands for 5 minutes, and get them to commit to writing this game for $5/hour. You'll get a very predictable result, as evidenced by every other project of this sort to ever be attempted. You want a guarantee? Hire pros. You want a maybe? Round up volunteers.
Again, just my opinion, but I believe it's an opinion held up by years of projects like this being attempted.
My offer to help stands either way, as many other people have mentioned, it's not really about money. You'll do yourself a disservice, though, IMHO, if you don't at the very least invest in a professional project manager (Robin Harbron comes to mind). |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
mmmh i dont know, but i think some of you are spoiled by your IMHO pretty damn high salary :) i know a couple of professional game devers, and none of them comes even close to 25$ per hour. i know we have made a gameboy game on a 15k budget, with 3 people in around 6 months (do the math, no i dont know how the company could even exist, those 15k barely were enough for one persons salary =P). lots of mobile- and casual gaming stuff (ie what isnt AAA titles) gets similar budgets i have heard.
that said, i think the whole "paid" thing is the wrong path. you need to find someone who _wants_ to make this game. you cant possibly pay enough for salary being a relevant factor anyway. |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
Quoting Groepazmmmh i dont know, but i think some of you are spoiled by your IMHO pretty damn high salary :)
I have two part time jobs in addition to that full-time day job, and it's still a struggle sometimes to keep things afloat. Tell me again how spoiled I am. |
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Burning Horizon
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 3 |
I think there are likely plenty of people who _want_ to make this game, and other games. There are far less people who _can_ make this game. There are fewer still that will work for free. The number of people who have the ability, and the desire, and will work for free likely very very few.
Also, in my experience, if you pay people to do things they are (hopefully) usually more driven to actually deliver. Also, in my experience, if people are doing something for free/for fun for you, it is very difficult to tell them how to do it, to follow specifications.
In any case, I agree with Six. If you want this to actually get completed, in a set amount of time, some set of people have to get something for it, and be responsible for it. I think hoping to find someone who wants to do this "for fun" and expect them to actually deliver something while adhering to any kind of specifications won't work.
In the end this is up to them how they want to proceed, this is just (free) information for them to digest. I'll grab my bucket of popcorn, sit back, and watch. |
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Macbeth
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11 |
Different economies, I guess. I'm pretty sure I got around $25/hour back in 2004 when I worked on the C64DTV and Hummer. I was making about the same doing IT work at my day job (here in Canada) too, and I was hardly the best paid in the company. Nowadays I find it pretty easy to find iOS dev work for $40+ per hour.
Game looks cool, and I hope you can find the right guy or team to make it happen! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:I have two part time jobs in addition to that full-time day job, and it's still a struggle sometimes to keep things afloat.
thats kindof interesting... with 5k a month you'd certainly have no such problems here whatsoever :) |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Quoting GroepazQuote:I have two part time jobs in addition to that full-time day job, and it's still a struggle sometimes to keep things afloat.
thats kindof interesting... with 5k a month you'd certainly have no such problems here whatsoever :)
Well, he didn't say he was making 5K a month, he said he had a full time job and 2 part time jobs.
But we are starting to get somewhat off topic I think. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:he didn't say he was making 5K a month, he said he had a full time job and 2 part time jobs.
math, can you do it? a fulltime job at $25/h is 5k/month (or perhaps 4.5 - but you get the idea) |
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PopMilo
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 146 |
Quoting GroepazQuote:he didn't say he was making 5K a month, he said he had a full time job and 2 part time jobs.
math, can you do it? a fulltime job at $25/h is 5k/month (or perhaps 4.5 - but you get the idea)
Well... To quoute Six "...$25/hour was a conservative estimate... I make almost twice that at my day job...".
According to math it's around $8k ;)
It's not that much off topic if question is can you find coder willing to code for an amount that someone else is ready to spend.
Imho it's quite reasonable for a someone earning $50/hour to employ someone who's ready to work for $5/hour...
As all is relative, $50 in New york can provide you with same services and goods as $5 in other part of the world...
$8k sounds like "funny money" to me. Facts from my part of world (Serbia) are that as an engineer in a factory in a small town I earn around $400 a month which is still good as average wage for most of the workers is around $250. Beauty of it is that with two paychecks like this my family lives quite well. We work 7-8 hours a day, have 3-4 weeks of vacations, travel to Rome, Vienna or Budapest and spend at least couple weeks every summer either in Montenegro or in Greece ...
If I need extra $100 I take additional paid work for $10-$20/hour... You can guess my feelings if you offer me $5 for an hour that I would spend anyway writing 6502 code. At least I don't have to explain to wife where those 100Eur for Retro Gamer subscription come from ;)
Anyway... Imho it's hard to estimate and promise any amount of money to develop something for C64 in advance. When was the last time someone wrote a beat-em-up mixed up with RPG on C64 ? There are too many unknowns...
My suggestion to Disthron is to provide some graphics for testing purposes and let the guys with extra time and c64 love try to do something cool with it. If tests succeed then you can try to gather further support and push the game to the finish line with what ever it takes - be it passion or cold, hard cash ;) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
I don't want to be off-topic (I'm really sorry for that), but Groepaz, you should consider the possibility that $50 (or $25) isn't necessarily flat rate $400 or 200, but it can be time-tracked task based work. I myself work that way. I charge 15-25 EUR depending on clients and tasks, but my average income is about 1700 EUR brutto / month (based on average from last 2 years). (I could earn twice as much but I don't... which is caused by laziness and passive aggressive behavior ;-) (that second thing is a novelty, I realized that few days ago and now I study myself for symptoms ;-)). And even when it's quite nice money over here, I'm constantly out of money ;-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
thats not a "full time job" then. that implies sth like 8h a day, 5 days a week, ie around 150-200 hours per month. |
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Martin Piper
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 722 |
Back in the day such games would be coded in a couple of months. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Though the couple of months would mostly apply to the "by the numbers" action games, right? If a game contained significant R&D (simulation games, games with cinematic qualities, unique design or otherwise ambitious) it could easily be longer.
This game here isn't really complex in the basic combat gameplay, but the engine needed to support it good enough on the C64, plus the cutscene work if those are ported, could easily push it into the more "ambitious" category. |
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PopMilo
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 146 |
Quoting cadaver...This game here isn't really complex in the basic combat gameplay, but the engine needed to support it good enough on the C64, plus the cutscene work if those are ported, could easily push it into the more "ambitious" category.
Agreed. This is definitely one of ambitious ones.
Take a look at additional material here:
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=42309.0
And here:
https://www.facebook.com/EdelinTalesPortalsofDoom
On the bright side - design, story and lots of graphics looks done. |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686 |
I nominate Martin Piper, surely with his genius level of knowledge and years of experience in the industry he can whip this out for you in a couple of months.
He's already got an engine that's perfectly suited to the job, and even an excellent netcode library perfect to make this a fantastic multiplayer experience for all. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Interesting project. Not at all impossible technically, given enough compromise.
If money is an issue for potential "C-64 consultants", living outside of the U.S. helps. As seen in previous posts, things generally cost less in the rest of the world, but income tends to be less as well.
Disthron: I wonder, what is your motivation for such an ambitious "stretch goal"? Your original PC port is not yet finished, but would possibly be delayed while the C-64 port will still be in development. Since you and everybody in your team seem not to have any C-64 development experience, i'm assuming no C-64 specific fondness or nostalgia, except playing the games. Why do you care?
Would a C-64 port increase the popularity of the entire project so much, even if only initially via Slashdot publicity etc.? Was it a personal or strategic decision to have a C-64-ish look from the start? Why not SNES or any other classic 8-bit platform, as this type of game has been more successful on other platforms than C-64, i believe. |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Quoting KrillWhy do you care? Would a C-64 port increase the popularity of the entire project so much,
No, in fact most people probably wouldn't even bother downloading an emulator to play the ROM..... It's just cool to have a new game on an old system. I don't know, maybe getting it to run on actual hardware makes it feel more legit? Maybe it's an affirmation that we liked these things because they WERE actually good and NOT just because they were the only thing around at the time. I don't know what it is, I just always thought it was really cool when someone comes out with a new Atari 2600 game, or a new Megadrive game.
Quoting KrillWas it a personal or strategic decision to have a C-64-ish look from the start?
It was somewhat strategic. I knew I wouldn't be able to make a AAA 3D game, and rather than make a bad 3D game I decided to try and make a good 2D one. And I've always been a fan of the pixel art aesthetic.
Also, I noticed that even though you would see mocked up screen shots and sometimes even animations of "What would X game be like on the C64".... no one seemed to actually be making any games in it's style. During the course of development, taking to people about my game I only found 1 other team who was developing a C64 style game. I mean, even the Apple 2 was getting more love than the C64 with stuff like Organ Trail. Mean while it seems NES styled games come out every other week. Not that I have anything against the NES mind you but.... I mean give some other systems a chance.
When I started considering Kickstarter for additional funding I started entertaining the idea that maybe, if we could use the artwork from the PC version we would only need to hire a programmer and we could afford an actual C64 version as well! Unfortunately the artwork would need a lot of converting and apparently the coding would be a LOT more involved than I'd initially thought.
Anyway Here's a link to the only other C64 retro through back game that I'm aware of.
http://www.indiedb.com/games/dustbowl-a-wasteland-adventure
Here's a link to a YouTube channel that likes to make video mockups of what modern games might look like on the C64.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml3jjWssiCs |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
That retro 64 screenshot has hires gfx (1x1pixel). I would be glad to see such GFX on c64 but it's more likely that it would look like this on Amiga. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting DisthronAnd I've always been a fan of the pixel art aesthetic. I see. But keep in mind that making a game on an actual 8-bit platform gives you all the restrictions that were one of the main reasons for the "pixel art aesthetic" in the first place. A lot of design decisions are actually based on circumventing this or that shortcoming of the machine, also limiting the artist's degrees of freedom, but enabling creative solutions for these limitation problems.
Quoting DisthronUnfortunately the artwork would need a lot of converting and apparently the coding would be a LOT more involved than I'd initially thought. There's a lot more than coding to be done when making a good port. The converted graphics will need a graphics artist's manual touches to shine, and the music and sound effects should be made by a SID expert as well.
However, the coding part can be simplified by sharing as much code as possible among both the original PC and the C-64 ports. If the PC version is written in C, consider using a C compiler like cc65 to compile the C-64 port, and gradually replace the original C code, especially inner loops and hardware abstraction layer implementations, with hand-crafted assembly code until your performance criteria are met.
If the game's code structure is good enough from a cross-platform perspective, creating the C-64 port could be some kind of "fill in the gaps" and "optimise this" or "beautify that" problem.
This approach would likely have implications for the original PC game code, meaning compromises or simplifications will feed back into the PC code (re: amount of enemies on screen), with the aim of having both ports be as close as possible to each other.
As mentioned before, developing the game for a cartridge (=EasyFlash) would enable many things otherwise impossible, such as great amounts of animation and plenty of memory usable for unrolled loops to achieve high performance. See Prince of Persia 1.1 which is a fine example for that. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Thinking further about it, a cross-platform approach would have to put emphasis on the C-64 port. That also means that anything that looks and feels good on an actual C-64 should also be good enough for the PC version. Graphics manually retouched for the C-64 port could replace the original PC graphics. That requires good CRT emulation, but i see you have already started on that. Code engineered and optimized for the C-64 could also be wrapped with a thin emulation layer on the PC port, for better sharing of code. |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Quoting KrillI see. But keep in mind that making a game on an actual 8-bit platform gives you all the restrictions that were one of the main reasons for the "pixel art aesthetic" in the first place.
I know, I had similar issues. Though my limitations were trying to fit my game into a tiny budget rather than a tiny amount of ram. ^_^
The game isn't being written in C. It's being written in Fusion 2.5, and won't be able to share any of the code with any port that isn't also made in Fusion 2.5.
It might be able to use the scripts from the dialog system I'm developing, but even that might not be efficient enough for the C64. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Without much re-usable code, a C-64 port would require a complete re-implementation of the game's logic and not just a few low-level low-end hardware front-ends.
This pushes it even further into the ambitious realm.
I'm pretty positive a script interpreter for dialog handling is well within the C-64's capabilities, though. |
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PopMilo
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 146 |
Thanks Disthron for those links!
Wastland looks great in that retro pixel style with C64 palette.
I wonder if such colorfull picture could fit into bitmap multicolor mode ? |
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PopMilo
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 146 |
Quoting PopMiloThanks Disthron for those links!
Wastland looks great in that retro pixel style with C64 palette.
I wonder if such colorfull picture could fit into bitmap multicolor mode ?
Used tool at: http://c64.superdefault.com
And got this:
As always, a lot is possible on c64, just a matter of time ;) |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Hay everyone, a couple of people have volunteered to work on a C64 port of Edelin Tales on there own time. I made a video of a map test that they did. Check it out on my Youtube channel.
https://youtu.be/eAAD2DIv8b4 |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Is that bitmap graphics instead of character mode? That'd rule out some programmers posting on this thread. Still, a mystery programmer who needs love, that could be anybody. :)
Nevertheless good work, whoever did it. |
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PopMilo
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 146 |
Cool!
Gotta start somewhere :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
looks properly optimized, i wonder how it does load data when the screen stops :) shouldnt it be possible to cram such a map into 64 ? 4x4 tiles fex, to make things eay :) |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Hi everyone. So we are starting to get a few people expressing interest in this project. I was wondering if there was a way to make a private thread? |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3194 |
use email |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Quote: use email
We have been using e-mail, but it's getting a bit out of hand. |
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PopMilo
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 146 |
Put your code and resources in github or bitbucket repo.
That stuff was made for things like this. |
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trent
Registered: Apr 2015
Posts: 12 |
My vote would be leave the thread up and post periodic updates (positive or negative) to finish the story out.
I've been following this thread with some interest in the mechanics and potential outcome.
(I find project management interesting and curious to see how this turns out in the end) |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Quote: My vote would be leave the thread up and post periodic updates (positive or negative) to finish the story out.
I've been following this thread with some interest in the mechanics and potential outcome.
(I find project management interesting and curious to see how this turns out in the end)
Oh, I'm not going to be closing the thread. I will be updating people as things progress. I'm just talking about a private thing just for the people working on the project. To discuss coding matters and such. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting DisthronI'm just talking about a private thing just for the people working on the project. To discuss coding matters and such. And as Ian Coog and PopMilo have said already, CSDb is not the place for that.
Set up a forum yourself or use any of the existing free forum services, and create a proper (possibly moderated) mailing list. |
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Burning Horizon
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 3 |
Quote: Quoting DisthronI'm just talking about a private thing just for the people working on the project. To discuss coding matters and such. And as Ian Coog and PopMilo have said already, CSDb is not the place for that.
Set up a forum yourself or use any of the existing free forum services, and create a proper (possibly moderated) mailing list.
Correct, this is where everyone will properly discuss the _crack_ of the game. ;) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
The point is that CSDb is not the place for private forum discussions. Public forum discussions and private messages to single persons only. And i think that's a-okay. |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Ok, I sorted out a private developer forum on Desura. So the people working on the C64 port can chat with the PC devs. |
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PopMilo
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 146 |
Quote: Ok, I sorted out a private developer forum on Desura. So the people working on the C64 port can chat with the PC devs.
Don't make it too private, post some news out of it from time to time ;)
Good luck with development! |
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Disthron
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2013
Posts: 21 |
Hay everyone, Someone was nice enough to code a demo featuring the music from the game. Though he himself isn't really working on the project, he apparently doesn't have the time to commit to a full game. He just wanted to do a music demo.
Anyway, check out out. I thought it was pretty cool. I really liked how well the cut scene graphics translated over.
Also, there's some instructions in the comment at the bottom.
http://csdb.dk/release/?id=138996&show=review#review |
