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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
Release id #247799 : Bowhunter
"I can honestly say that all these pixels has been carefully selected" - Why say this when it obviously looks like it's not the case? |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Ever heard of sarcasm? |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Well, if this release and subsequent comment from the author were an art performance, a social commentary, it worked. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3193 |
Carefully Selected Pixels
Attention, whores!!11!!1 |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Quote: Well, if this release and subsequent comment from the author were an art performance, a social commentary, it worked.
No, it didn't, was just plain lame. Would not expect that from Censor Design. :( |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
Everything is an entry. |
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Marq
Registered: Sep 2011
Posts: 50 |
Carefully selected characters: http://www.kameli.net/~marq/jouskari.png |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Still no compo? https://i.imgur.com/RQCo6kY.gif |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
Not funny enough for a compo I guess - graphicians seem so overworked all day. You hardly get 2-3 manually placed pixels from them when asking anyhow. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1101 |
forum compo then?
I took the creative approach by not highlighting the 2 most eye-catching features of the oregano, but rather focus on the deeper meaning behind a more important part. |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
Forum compo is fine, since votes are going to be manipulated anyway :P |
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rexbeng
Registered: Aug 2012
Posts: 37 |
I think graphics compos work more or less this way.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/160/308/1f1.jpg |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:I think graphics compos work more or less this way.
If I wanted to go literal, I'd say demoscene graphics compos work exactly the opposite from the linked picture. Number of hours is the most significant, sometimes the only measure. The amount of hysterically weaved pixels is what usually counts. "Moar is better". Even AI / wired gfx sometimes get good grades, not because of their artistic value (they certainly can have that, it's just that I've never seen it) but because some people don't recognize them as AI/converts and think hours had been invested. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:Still no compo? https://i.imgur.com/RQCo6kY.gif
You failed man, this one is way too good for this compo. ;) |
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rexbeng
Registered: Aug 2012
Posts: 37 |
@4gentE: yes, I should have elaborated. The thing I wanted to highlight by posting that image was the 'winner was chosen through likes' part, rather than the actual pics shown. :) |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@rexbeng
I know. ;) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732 |
Carefully Selected MC Pixels. |
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Dr. TerrorZ
Registered: Oct 2013
Posts: 17 |
These kind of things shouldn't always be punished/rewarded with a compo...
The results of the Compopic tribute compo a few years back were fun and productive though. (Compopic Competition)
I'd welcome a feelgood end-of-year gfx compo, but maybe not joke conversion/AI stuff. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
there ara many different ways to have fun. Then, what is fun for one, might be percieved quite differently by others.
Many of us, me included, are overreacting to the issue here. I blame orgaz, for not disqualifying the picture after it was obvius it is a copy, which is against their own rules stated on the party page. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
I suppose You do realize the author is a member of the orga team. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Quote: I suppose You do realize the author is a member of the orga team.
And? It does not make the rule less broken. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
So I guess it never occured to you that perhaps some people will tend to not be too quick to disqualify themselves. I truly envy you, and I’m not being ironic. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
Relevant for this same discussion:
Nogard
Though I'd like to add to this: The Sarge is a bloody amazing artist. Newer pics 100% aren't wired, I know for sure. But.. if we are shaming people who haven't attributed sources for their pictures - particularly when entered into compos and won top positions - then we should also look in on ourselves. 2018 isn't that long ago - and the no-copy movement had already been a thing for at least 20 years.
As I say, though, The Sarge is brilliant... and I hope he'll speak to me after this.
Being honest, what I've really disliked about the whole anti-AI, anti-copy, anti-wire thing has been that the brutality of it at times. I think it first started in a really bad way with Trident. His artwork was, frankly, stunning. Yes, it needed attributions .. but we're the scene. We've often forgotten or just not cared to give that. We can improve if we want to .. but let's not stoop to effective bullying .. I felt after that that Trident's output slowed - which is a damned huge shame for the scene. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@Raistlin
Of course you meant Talent, not Trident. |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
those who wired and won compos in the past,are most likely throwing the most shit now .. funny.. |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
Quote: Quote:I think graphics compos work more or less this way.
If I wanted to go literal, I'd say demoscene graphics compos work exactly the opposite from the linked picture. Number of hours is the most significant, sometimes the only measure. The amount of hysterically weaved pixels is what usually counts. "Moar is better". Even AI / wired gfx sometimes get good grades, not because of their artistic value (they certainly can have that, it's just that I've never seen it) but because some people don't recognize them as AI/converts and think hours had been invested.
4gente, a member of the c64 scene since 2021 is explaining us the demo scene. \O/ |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
Quote: @Raistlin
Of course you meant Talent, not Trident.
Oh yes, sorry! |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Oh my god you’ve awakend the Pissmaker troll. |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
Quoting 4gentEOh my god you’ve awakend the Pissmaker troll.
exactly what i expected from you. \O/ |
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The Sarge
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 49 |
I guess you can find 1:1 copies from almost everyone. Especially the older stuff. 2018 this was not talked about much. Its just recently this has come to attention and it should!
I have made so many pictures and I honestly forgot about this one. But now I remember. Thanks for reminding me. I remember this being a 1:1 hand pixeled thing and its not a wire, but it's still a copy, so my bad.
This was probably the second image I made since my comeback, I didn't really know or understood the rules back then. This would never happen today and will never do in the future.
Im sorry. Hedning remove this from the Gubbdata 2018 results. I feel really bad now. :( |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@Peacemaker
Excuse me, but I don’t see how the span of my scene activity qualifies or disqualifies me from making casual observation of the obvious.
On the other hand, years of coding (or shouting profanities in conference calls) can’t bring you closer to understanding gfx or art, and it shows.
Again, you take time to stalk me, and try yourself at some kind of i dunno “dumb person’s doxxing attempt”. Last time, the conversation was somewhat heated, this time it was just a casual talk. |
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Marq
Registered: Sep 2011
Posts: 50 |
Our old No Copy? gallery is still online in case you enjoy this kind of busting: http://kameli.net/nocopy/ |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732 |
Quote: Our old No Copy? gallery is still online in case you enjoy this kind of busting: http://kameli.net/nocopy/
Last update: Apr 7 2002.
:( |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: I guess you can find 1:1 copies from almost everyone. Especially the older stuff. 2018 this was not talked about much. Its just recently this has come to attention and it should!
I have made so many pictures and I honestly forgot about this one. But now I remember. Thanks for reminding me. I remember this being a 1:1 hand pixeled thing and its not a wire, but it's still a copy, so my bad.
This was probably the second image I made since my comeback, I didn't really know or understood the rules back then. This would never happen today and will never do in the future.
Im sorry. Hedning remove this from the Gubbdata 2018 results. I feel really bad now. :(
Actually, this is the way of handling of the blame, that I expect from any creator. We are around our 50'ties. We should be able to react as decent adults. Trying to talk out of the responsibility and blaming others for bringing up our sins is ridiculous.
Admit the guilt. Take the shame with dignity and move on. I don't think that's too much to expect. :) |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 369 |
All this "cheating" and converting with or without AI shows me personally only one thing:
The people who do this no longer pixeling for fun, which is very sad.
The reasons for this may be obvious. Especially in a competition, this is really bitter.
IMO using references is totally ok, if you put more effort into it compared to "Carefully Selected Pixels"!
My 3,14 cent. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Strangely enough, if it comes to music compos, covers are hardly ever sent in. Unless it's explicitly allowed or required in the compo rules, as for example with the current Yogi's & Flex' Melodic 2SID Compo 2024 or earlier events such as Game Music Remix Compo 2023.
An [insert theme here] image conversion compo would be good for some, maybe. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote: Strangely enough, if it comes to music compos, covers are hardly ever sent in.
My guess is it’s the “entrance fee”. Plagiarizing a song or making a cover SID is not so trivial. Converting a pic found on the internet and “carefully selecting pixels” is. Very trivial. Perhaps this will change when the LLM AI monster learns SID composing… |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quoting 4gentEQuote: Strangely enough, if it comes to music compos, covers are hardly ever sent in.
My guess is it’s the “entrance fee”. Plagiarizing a song or making a cover SID is not so trivial. Converting a pic found on the internet and “carefully selecting pixels” is. Very trivial. Perhaps this will change when the LLM AI monster learns SID composing…
Interesting idea. From experience, I find making a cover to be easier than doing an original composition. But who knows, maybe some people are already using AI to do the composition and then carefully tweak it in a SID editor. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Making copies is good way to learn. There is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing wrong in making copies to relax. But if the rules are no copies, then copies should not be allowed.
I have nothing against wiring, conversions, AI nor animations in demos. All of them could have their place in the scene, but it should be known what is what and be judged according to that. All the art is some form of a remix, every artist is using some references.
The problem is if we prohibit some kinds of art, people will still do it, and pretend it's something else. If there were open categories for AI, wires, copies, people could post them in those categories freely. But the more we try to fight it, and preach the only "true way", the more cheats we will face.
I for example do a couple of vires a day, some are fucking amazing, and it's hard to believe those are only multicolor not augmented with sprites or fli. I do not post them here, because of the hate i do not want to face. I will make a slideshow someday showcasing the best of them, but will never claim I painted them myself. Interestingly, the more I convert the more I feel urge to pixel myself.
Also people hate AI, and everything that was made with it. Sure, you can get decent results out of a box, but when you want to art direct it, and achieve exact results it is not that easy, and requires a lot of skill and knowledge. Sure it is different skill that handpixeling, but it is still some skill, that does not deserve pure hate. But to know that one needs to leave their fears and try to do something themselves, then they will be able to appreciate it. Otherwise it is just pure hate. And hate is rarely leading to something good.
Still, traditional artists are unbeaten, and converts have no match. But it is only true for the very best. It was always like that - either you are the best, or you are nobody. True art is worth a lot, mediocre one is dime a dozen.
People will still make mistakes. Let's make a space where they can make those mistakes, but also to learn and grow, to admit those, and evolve to be better artists, better humans instead on lynching them without a grain of regret.
We need less hate and more caring and understanding, love, friendship and honesty. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:My guess is it’s the “entrance fee”. Plagiarizing a song or making a cover SID is not so trivial.
Its no less hard or trivial than making converted GFX. Been there done that. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732 |
Also see Dragoneye. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Quote: Our old No Copy? gallery is still online in case you enjoy this kind of busting: http://kameli.net/nocopy/
Living proof that Boris Vallejo was the most influential scene artist :) |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 369 |
"Interestingly, the more I convert the more I feel urge to pixel myself."
Do not forget this and simply start. You will see how long you gonna need for the basics. ;)
Watching and creating are different in many cases. |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
Quote: @Peacemaker
Excuse me, but I don’t see how the span of my scene activity qualifies or disqualifies me from making casual observation of the obvious.
On the other hand, years of coding (or shouting profanities in conference calls) can’t bring you closer to understanding gfx or art, and it shows.
Again, you take time to stalk me, and try yourself at some kind of i dunno “dumb person’s doxxing attempt”. Last time, the conversation was somewhat heated, this time it was just a casual talk.
lol. you are just a bad joke too me :D |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Yet you sniff around my underwear, looking how long I’m active, etc. Poor thing. |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 369 |
\O/ ... "below the belt" ... somehow! |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:Its no less hard or trivial than making converted GFX. Been there done that.
I beg to differ. Sure, it’s trivial to you. But still you had to be able to read at least half page of text and have basic understanding of how things work. Even if we’re talking about converting MIDI to SID notes. Dragging a found jpeg in whatever resolution into a converter and pushing a button to save out a C64 executable is a whole different level of trivial I think. But that’s offtopic. Huh? Wait, what exactly is the topic? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Once you have the converter, it requires exactly the same effort. And the result will be exactly as shitty of course. |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
"Yet you sniff around my underwear, looking how long I’m active, etc. Poor thing."
you make yourself ridiculous. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Where are moderators when you need one? |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
I just can’t understand it when people casually speak of “animations” in this thread. It feels like they are somehow dragging excellent stuff like Fishbomb demo down in the dirt with this release here. Please don’t compare (1) excellent animations custom made by Extend which are then adjusted, converted and rendered thru Extend’s custom coded C64 anim player with (2) almost worthless express gfx conversions like Bowhunter in which both artwork and conversion code are “outsourced”.
I feel the same about comparing this Bowhunter crap with Jetboy’s exquisite experiments in converter code. There’s just no comparison. |
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Dr. TerrorZ
Registered: Oct 2013
Posts: 17 |
Much of pin up art including Boris Vallejo, was based on photographed models. And the nostalgic images from my youth, like Bob Wakelin's adverts in game magazines, Atari 2600 cover art, etc. were also "copied" as hell.
But when the source images for these illustrators are revealed, my reaction is more like "oh, interesting, it was done like that", because they often show that there was a creative thinking process going on even before the brushwork even began. Or, in case of some pin up artists, they were quite accomplished photographers in the first place. Or, in Wakelin's case, the result is a kind of a clever collage with some copied parts, the outcome more striking than the original.
Instead, often when a scene gfx copy is revealed, I'm more astonished how little the original was changed, if at all. Sure, pixeling the copy can be difficult and even in some cases applauded, but if it looks like a drag'n'drop work I can't really appreciate it much. It's just doing the last step on top of a longer process, taken from someone else. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Animation is mentioned here i guess because Animations, AI, Wires, Copies, Converts are all strongly hated here. Hated no matter what kind of those thing they are.
Making animations that are long and interesting fitting into one side of disk, and being able to be read and played in real time is quite a feat. Screaming YUCK ANIMATIONS! is easy, making tools to pack and unpack them is a different story. But you have to try doing it yourself to be able to see how complex it really is. Still, making animations and claiming it is realtime effect is lame, but also long scene tradition... While back in the times, we were youngsters, bold and arrogant, and we were missbehaving, that could have been attributed to young age and not being mature. We were doing lots of stupid things, things that we are not necessarily proud of now. Sins of the youth... Like many people started by ripping others stuff and claiming it was their own. I'm guilty of that (sorry Ian Coog, sorry Polonus), but i was a brat back then, and did not know any better. I hoped we all matured a lot through those decades...
We also should not judge past events with the modern morals. Those were different times, different things were considered status quo. Many things that are no go now, used to be seen as nothing wrong back then.
But now is now. We have different standards, and we should adhere to them. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Pff i never stole the raster routine from WoD intro |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: Animation is mentioned here i guess because Animations, AI, Wires, Copies, Converts are all strongly hated here. Hated no matter what kind of those thing they are.
Making animations that are long and interesting fitting into one side of disk, and being able to be read and played in real time is quite a feat. Screaming YUCK ANIMATIONS! is easy, making tools to pack and unpack them is a different story. But you have to try doing it yourself to be able to see how complex it really is. Still, making animations and claiming it is realtime effect is lame, but also long scene tradition... While back in the times, we were youngsters, bold and arrogant, and we were missbehaving, that could have been attributed to young age and not being mature. We were doing lots of stupid things, things that we are not necessarily proud of now. Sins of the youth... Like many people started by ripping others stuff and claiming it was their own. I'm guilty of that (sorry Ian Coog, sorry Polonus), but i was a brat back then, and did not know any better. I hoped we all matured a lot through those decades...
We also should not judge past events with the modern morals. Those were different times, different things were considered status quo. Many things that are no go now, used to be seen as nothing wrong back then.
But now is now. We have different standards, and we should adhere to them.
I couldn't have said it better. Thank you. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 465 |
Quote: Quote:Its no less hard or trivial than making converted GFX. Been there done that.
I beg to differ. Sure, it’s trivial to you. But still you had to be able to read at least half page of text and have basic understanding of how things work. Even if we’re talking about converting MIDI to SID notes. Dragging a found jpeg in whatever resolution into a converter and pushing a button to save out a C64 executable is a whole different level of trivial I think. But that’s offtopic. Huh? Wait, what exactly is the topic?
should be the topic. roughly a half of new music releases is covers nowadays. if they are made by ear, then it's comparable to using reference, but pixeling by hand. if they are based on existing easy-to-import transcriptions, then it's more like converting. imho. would like to hear opinions on that, but no one raises the subject - publicly! - and i'm too shy to begin ;) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quote: should be the topic. roughly a half of new music releases is covers nowadays. if they are made by ear, then it's comparable to using reference, but pixeling by hand. if they are based on existing easy-to-import transcriptions, then it's more like converting. imho. would like to hear opinions on that, but no one raises the subject - publicly! - and i'm too shy to begin ;)
Indeed a good comparison. Though it's less of a problem for music compos than gfx compos, it seems. As in, covers are usually explicitly not allowed. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
I have a lifelong interest in artistic processes. I also "suffer from" rekindled interest in C64 demoscene. Here's what I found to be the case. Every artistic movement, every artistic subculture starts out by copying what came before it. Then, with time, it grows into finding its own authentic voice. Same goes for individual authors out on their personal artistic journeys. You sort of "fake it until you make it". The C64 demoscene in 2024 is ripe, it's a fully formed adult. It already "made it". Following suggestions that it should regress to its past immature, outgrown ways, that it should continue to "fake it" even after it already, quite painfully, "made it", would be corrosive to its health, as this kind of growth retarding cramps, these calls for regression, virtually always are. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Puer Aeternus |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:As in, covers are usually explicitly not allowed.
Just like copies in GFX compos then :)
And what Randall said. I'd even say it's even more of a problem with tunes - since with GFX it is much easier to find the original eventually. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quoting chatGPZQuote:As in, covers are usually explicitly not allowed.
Just like copies in GFX compos then :)
Ayes, some GFX compos have that rule as well. Most only ask for work-stages though, but still allow copies. |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
We should program an AI to churn out irate gatekeeping rants - just think of all the typing that would save for everyone. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
While We’re at it, We should also program a script to churn out fashionable words like “gatekeeping” that make the user sound very laid back. ;) |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
You can throw snark, but this is gatekeeping by the dictionary definition. It's also some gross hypocrisy since most of the people complaining are using tools of their own to make the work simpler.
The whole argument isn't functionally different from saying that real coders don't use compilers. It's what insecure people who have pigeonholed themselves into a single model do when the world moves forward around them - complain and try to drag everyone else backwards. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: You can throw snark, but this is gatekeeping by the dictionary definition. It's also some gross hypocrisy since most of the people complaining are using tools of their own to make the work simpler.
The whole argument isn't functionally different from saying that real coders don't use compilers. It's what insecure people who have pigeonholed themselves into a single model do when the world moves forward around them - complain and try to drag everyone else backwards.
What is insecure about aiming for artistic integrity and high quality productions? Insecurity usually triggers defense mechanism. Some of the comments under Bowhunter are good example of those. And they are not by Joe... |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Oh, not so laid back after all. Good.
Quote:drag everyone else backwards.
Exactly how pointing out that it’s a shame that low quality conversions of stolen pictures which were not that good to begin with participate in compos which state “no copy” in 2024 drags everyone else backwards?
Insecure? Pigeonholed? I see the fashionable term generator that guarantees laidback coolnes still works full throttle. |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
Quote: Oh, not so laid back after all. Good.
Quote:drag everyone else backwards.
Exactly how pointing out that it’s a shame that low quality conversions of stolen pictures which were not that good to begin with participate in compos which state “no copy” in 2024 drags everyone else backwards?
Insecure? Pigeonholed? I see the fashionable term generator that guarantees laidback coolnes still works full throttle.
I don't really need to answer that since you're assigning me a position I didn't take. Compo entries should obey compo rules. Though if we're going to say AI has no place in compos, let's get rid of all the modern tools that let people use clip art and trace too.
The people who are using every tool available short of AI complaining about people using AI AT ALL is what I'm mocking - that you somehow managed to interpret that as a personal attack and need to foam over it, well that's just free entertainment. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
All cool, sorry, I must have misunderstood you.
In a way I thought you were saying that this: Bowhunter is somehow progressive and our way forward, while this: Bri1iiI! is somehow regressive and “drags everyone backwards”. |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293 |
Quote: All cool, sorry, I must have misunderstood you.
In a way I thought you were saying that this: Bowhunter is somehow progressive and our way forward, while this: Bri1iiI! is somehow regressive and “drags everyone backwards”.
They're both cool things made for the C64 so I appreciate them both (though for different reasons).
My criticism is specifically for people who use every modern tool short of AI - and then complain about other people using AI. Those editors where you can paste in clip art or transparency the editor over a source image - using those is no different from using AI - though I wouldn't condemn either outside of a compo.
What's regressive is the idea that a production [outside of the context of compo rules] sucks if it's produced using tools newer than the ones the complainer is comfortable with. That kind of cyber-luddite-ism, taken to its logical conclusion, would have everyone restricted to KoalaPaint 1 - and even THEN the guy complaining about other people's work would probably have printed out art and taped it to his Koala pad to copy.
We're on the exact same page when it comes to compos and obeying their rules. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
Yawn ... this is still a thread on the referenced release.
It doesnt feel like it anymore though... just a reminder. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: They're both cool things made for the C64 so I appreciate them both (though for different reasons).
My criticism is specifically for people who use every modern tool short of AI - and then complain about other people using AI. Those editors where you can paste in clip art or transparency the editor over a source image - using those is no different from using AI - though I wouldn't condemn either outside of a compo.
What's regressive is the idea that a production [outside of the context of compo rules] sucks if it's produced using tools newer than the ones the complainer is comfortable with. That kind of cyber-luddite-ism, taken to its logical conclusion, would have everyone restricted to KoalaPaint 1 - and even THEN the guy complaining about other people's work would probably have printed out art and taped it to his Koala pad to copy.
We're on the exact same page when it comes to compos and obeying their rules.
Sorry six, but thre is so much wrong in what you claim about generative AI vs gfx tools, not to speak about apparent bad taste/inability to recognize production quality of the mentioned productions. :-\ |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
No, no, no! It is you who is wrong. People can produce anything from work of art to a piece of shit with use of traditional tools. With use of AI the range is exactly the same.
It was exactly the same with photography. People cried it will destroy painting. It didn't, and there are lots of photos that are works of art. And there is even such category on some parties. There are also AI compos on some parties already, but not very popular. YET!
World hates void. If there is something that can be done, it will be done, sooner rather than later. Let's take MC Carefully Selected Pixels as an example - when "original" image appeared and it became obvious i did a proper conversion at once. But i did not post, as i did not want to add to the drama that much. Wait few days, and it has been done by someone else...
Face it. If there are tools that can be used, people will used them no matter what. If we make a space where they can use it and share without being witch hunted, they will be posting right there, happy to share. If we keep the witch hunt, many of those works will end up in the compos. Of course, there still will be occasional occurrences of cheating, but much less
World is strange in a way, that the more one fights something, the more is there for one to fight. The stronger one squeezes to contain clay in one's fist, the more of it flows out between one's fingers. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
All that is cool, and I don't agree with what you say about LLM "AI" prompt-to-image catalogs of stolen goods, but let's not go there in this place.
What makes me sad is this: not only a lot of people fail to see that Bowhunter C64 pic has "dubious artistic value", but they also fail to see that the original is also of "dubious artistic value" (notice how careful I talk), I mean what's up with that weird bowstring?! This was the topic. What six started talking about (AI vs all-but-AI) is not the topic. |
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Magnar
Registered: Aug 2009
Posts: 61 |
Guys, I respect and love every one of you. Being active in the C64 community is just amazing, and I know we all put a tremendous amount of our private time into creating productions and releases.
As part of the organizing crew for Mysdata, I was informed that we lacked entries in the graphics and music compos the day before the event started. To make these compos a bit more interesting for the audience, I decided to submit two entries from my old unreleased work-in-progress projects. On Thursday evening, I emailed a song and a picture to Phreedh.
Mysdata is an event where we don’t charge visitors for admittance, food, alcoholic drinks, snacks, etc. For the past three years, I’ve personally bought trophies for the 1st-place compo winners, either handing them out or shipping them, using my own money. What I’m trying to explain is that the Mysdata event and the compos mean a great deal to me. I want the visitors to have a fantastic time and a unique experience, and I also want to personally give back a small token of appreciation to those I respect so highly—those who support the event by spending their time attending and/or contributing entries to our compos. Considering this, my intention was only to submit compo fillers, not to end up winning the trophies myself—that would have been awkward.
The Bowhunter is a picture I worked on over a period of 3–4 years, pixeling and remaking it into my version in my time. My process includes first drawing in Photoshop, then converting it to the C64 format, and continuing the pixeling process in the PixCen editor. I just wanted to share that this is how The Bowhunter was made and leave it at that. I believe the last time people saw me working on the picture was during GERP 2022. I haven’t done much work on it since then. It was quite a while ago, and I also lost the original reference picture. So, when I submitted it, I no longer knew how close or far off it was from the original model.
In hindsight, I should not have submitted this picture. Even though I openly told the people I spoke with at the party that my picture used a model from a reference, I didn’t announce it to everyone. Also, my own ideology for creating things on the C64 is based on the idea that we all have different approaches, levels, and experiences, and that in the end, having fun is what matters most.
I understand, however, that there are those in the community who take compos at parties more seriously and want to compete on a high level where compo rules are strictly followed. In my case, I was caught up in the moment and got focused on having more entries in the compo would improve the audience experience rather than carefully considering whether I was breaking any of the compo rules. I’m human, after all—so that was my mistake.
I believe there’s a growing reasoning in this forum that remakes, partial use of models, AI-generated work, etc., are not generally acceptable in compos anymore. Because of this, I will discuss with the compo team how we can improve compos at future Mysdata events. For example, by including a clearer statement in the compo rules specifying that 1:1 copies, remakes, and partial use of AI or references will not be accepted.
Using references is a great way to learn. I think every artist does this as part of practicing and improving their craft. But I agree that we should avoid submitting these practice works, no matter how good they turn out, to party compos. Whether it’s a great cover of a song or a remake of a picture, I’ve learned this now the hard way.
Lastly, most artists are aware of their own level of skill and how they’ve grown over time. However, I hope the witch-hunt and burning of other people who have used references in the past will end. It seems this has become a part of these discussions. This negativity risks discouraging amazing sceners from supporting the C64 community—a demoscene that is already shrinking day by day. I truly hope everyone reflects on how this could harm artists more than it does any good.
/Magnar |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@Magnar:
<3 |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: No, no, no! It is you who is wrong. People can produce anything from work of art to a piece of shit with use of traditional tools. With use of AI the range is exactly the same.
It was exactly the same with photography. People cried it will destroy painting. It didn't, and there are lots of photos that are works of art. And there is even such category on some parties. There are also AI compos on some parties already, but not very popular. YET!
World hates void. If there is something that can be done, it will be done, sooner rather than later. Let's take MC Carefully Selected Pixels as an example - when "original" image appeared and it became obvious i did a proper conversion at once. But i did not post, as i did not want to add to the drama that much. Wait few days, and it has been done by someone else...
Face it. If there are tools that can be used, people will used them no matter what. If we make a space where they can use it and share without being witch hunted, they will be posting right there, happy to share. If we keep the witch hunt, many of those works will end up in the compos. Of course, there still will be occasional occurrences of cheating, but much less
World is strange in a way, that the more one fights something, the more is there for one to fight. The stronger one squeezes to contain clay in one's fist, the more of it flows out between one's fingers.
I use AI daily. I can produce anything with it, and I still don't consider in an art.
In your hands with your process you produce beautiful productions with AI. High aesthetical quality. And that's all I can say now. I don't have enough academical background in art to debate wheter it is, or it is not an art. To me it looks beautiful pn c64, almost perfect, but if you can mass produce it will it still be art? Or china shop.
Nobody blames you for doing it, you are open about gour process.
Rest i will read later. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
Well said, Magnar. And especially noble re: Mysdata being free - I had no idea.
I’m not a huge fan of the recent lynch mobbing, as I said on Facebook, it’s been quite brutal. One scener in particular - who I won’t name but who seems to be like a “placebo scener” (always present, doesn’t really do anything) - was PM’ing me about some of this last year… he seemed hellbent on trying to get certain graphicians to quit the scene with his retort..
Attributions should be added to art. Compos shouldn’t allow copies/AI (unless the specify that they do).. etc etc.
But definitely it would make sense to create safe ways for practicing artists (and coders and musicians too tbh) where they won’t be shamed. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Thank you Magnar for explaining what really happened. Respect that you are still willing to talk with us after so much hate on our part. Sorry Magnar, i should have follow my gut feeling that you could not mean any wrong. When we meet in Opole you made such a good impression on me. I should have reach out to you and ask. Sorry again.
Maybe instead of making more strict rules we need less strict ones? If it were not stated in the rules that "copies will be disqualified" the outrage would not be as great.
Or maybe two compos - one for original pixel art, and another one for anything goes compo. Hmm... but if there is a problem with finding enough entries for just one it is not such a great idea.
I know many will not agree with me, but i think there is too many scene events throughout a year. We are not able to produce a stream of quality productions to support them all. Unless we are all Trident, which is not the case ;)
There were 3 events going on that weekend. If all of them combined their entries there would be a great show, and no need for "compo filers".
I understand each of those events has it's own specificity. It is totally different to have online party like Transmission64, real meeting like Mysdata, or more intimate (or so I imagine) Vintage Computing Carinthia.
I do not have ready solution. It wouldn't feel right to say to anyone that his event should not be happening. But to me the problem seems real, there is not enough quality productions to support all parties. Apparently organizers of Mysdata see it too if they decided to add "compo filers".
I'm a Sofa Scener, I do not attend many parties, so I judge them mainly by what I can see on the stream, or later see on CSDb, but I also understand people who meet in person have totally different perspective. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
I should think that party orgas would want to populate their gfx compo with quality entries, not just any entries, right?
Now, observe gfx compo at ZOO party for example. Always tons of high quality gfx. Usually more high quality entries than just any entries of any quality elswhere. No cheap wirejobs or dubious AIjobs in sight. So one would think this is the way to attract top talent. Perhaps this is a better strategy than populating compo with sub-par entries.
T64 and Mysdata being on the same weekend didn't help this situation with lack of entries either. Well, unless you're The Sarge that is, who entered both parties with top pics.
And orgas, whatever you do, please listen to what gfx artists themselves have to say. Not coders, not musicians, not compulsive besserwissers, and certainly not bored ranters like me. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
But... how did it end up at #3, displacing 4... arguably better, but pretty surely more creative entries? :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:No cheap wirejobs or dubious AIjobs in sight.
So decent wirejobs and kickass AIjobs are fine - right? |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Quote: Quote:No cheap wirejobs or dubious AIjobs in sight.
So decent wirejobs and kickass AIjobs are fine - right?
Aren't all wirejobs cheap, and all AIjobs dubious? |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 369 |
Source -> Convert -> Target
Source can be any picture (even own material)
Converting without any valueable effort is meh in any case.
But on the top of all, i would like to see used references, before some other people notice ... .. . it's always a bad taste then, somehow. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:Aren't all wirejobs cheap, and all AIjobs dubious?
Not to me. I have seen great converted pictures, and fascinating AI generated stuff. The whole discussion reminds me of "only lamers use crossassemblers" (c) Graham 1996 |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
Quoting Raistlin he seemed hellbent on trying to get certain graphicians to quit the scene with his retort..
This! |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:he seemed hellbent on trying to get certain graphicians to quit the scene with his retort..
I understand this is troublesome, but bringing it here like this, all intriguey, is a little… well, you know…
In answer, to play from the same intriguey book, I’ll say that there’s one voice here in this thread that does one helluva job (I’d say “hellbent” if this voice had enough coherence) to push a certain top dawg graphician quit the scene. And it’s working, as we speak, bit by bit. Tipping the scales further in direction that was already there.
Plus, y’all already forgot “gaslighters”? |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:So decent wirejobs and kickass AIjobs are fine - right?
Of course. Perhaps, in this very compo. ;) |
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wil
Registered: Jan 2019
Posts: 62 |
In a recent talk about the retro scene to students, I had to explain why certain PETSCII images are considered beautiful, as the students didn’t get what makes these blocky graphics special. To us, they are beautiful (at least the good ones), even though they can never reach the level of detail of a photograph or a hires true color image. The appeal lies in the skill required to express oneself through PETSCII. This is why we perceive them as beautiful. Denis Dutton’s TED2010 talk, A Darwinian Theory of Beauty, touches on this idea. In one part, he explains that we consider something beautiful when it is hard to achieve.
For the bowhunter, this would be a beautiful picture comparing to 1980s standards. Compare to other images with photos as reference, Strip Poker comes to my mind here, sorry for the NSFW mentioning. However, today it is fairly easy to produce similar images using a reference image and a converter program. This ease of production diminishes their beauty and desirability in our eyes, so the Bowhunter is not a beautiful picture. But reading about Magnar's efforts to make the picture makes it again somewhat beautiful.
The same principle applies to AI. A few years ago, someone who could create an appealing image using pure algorithms and coding would be celebrated. Nowadays, someone who simply enters a prompt, presses download, and converts the result is cheered for.
As for the conference jury: I wouldn’t blame them. The rules stated that copies were not allowed, so they would assume the rules were followed. The jury, likely consisting of a majority of heterosexual men, has found that picture of a bowhunter interesting, probably not even noticing the problem with the bowstring. So it got a good result.
Art and beauty are relative. Let’s relax about it. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote: Art and beauty are relative. Let’s relax about it.
Exactly. For example, when it comes to appreciating art, I personally couldn’t care less about “beauty” or “hardness to achieve”. Besides, art is pretty scarce in scene gfx to begin with imho, and that’s perfectly OK. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
I can't take anyone seriously who thinks any of this scene stuff is "Art" for that matter. Or who makes a big fuzz about it. |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 369 |
THIS is art! |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: I can't take anyone seriously who thinks any of this scene stuff is "Art" for that matter. Or who makes a big fuzz about it.
"..., if the movement, that is any movement, is lively enough, perhaps it is possible to know that it is moving even if it is not moving against anything." Gertrude Stein |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 369 |
I just asked the AI about definitions of art from famous artists. Everyone has their own point of view...
Personally, I think that everyone decides for themselves what art is for them. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 496 |
Why do people 'expose'?
Lies breaks (the trust in) relationships.
And it’s obviously broken in our community.
If you want to keep our community together, it’s time to advocate honesty / transparency. The only way to restore the trust.
Be a nice fellow-scener, be open about your process. None *could* expose you.
(And honestly, those who are secretive about their process in 2024, are suspicious by default. That's what the 'liars' have achieved. Bravo.) |
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Higgie
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 127 |
Quote: Why do people 'expose'?
Lies breaks (the trust in) relationships.
And it’s obviously broken in our community.
If you want to keep our community together, it’s time to advocate honesty / transparency. The only way to restore the trust.
Be a nice fellow-scener, be open about your process. None *could* expose you.
(And honestly, those who are secretive about their process in 2024, are suspicious by default. That's what the 'liars' have achieved. Bravo.)
Very good point! +1
In the past, I have occasionally fallen for some "tricks". And as a result, I not only lost trust, but also respect for the "artists". Among other things, I have noticed in my voting behavior on CSDb that I rarely vote for graphic releases. I just don't feel like thinking about the creation process or the tricks that the "artist" used anymore. :( Exceptions only really exist for artists that I trust. And of course my consistent downvoting of AI stuff. ;)
I want to try another example on the subject of conversions... Would the scene like it if I started scanning all my family photos from the old days and uploading each one as a graphic release? Or something else: If I were to buy a box of disks at a flea market, how would it be received if I uploaded all the previous owner's digitized photos that are on the disks as scene releases?
What I mean by that is: Just because you personally think it's nice or somehow useful to convert an image (e.g. from the Internet) that you like into a C64 format, that doesn't make it a worthy scene release. My advice: If it gives you pleasure, enjoy the process and the result, but keep the image to yourself. Print it out, hang it on the wall, show it to your friends who have no idea. But please leave us alone with that! *edit
Sorry Sander! I just didn't sound like a nice fellow scener, did I. ;)
*edit: And most of all, don't take part in any compo with it! |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 496 |
Quoting chatGPZI can't take anyone seriously who thinks any of this scene stuff is "Art" for that matter. Or who makes a big fuzz about it.
Demos can generally be classified as folk art. I'd say there are exceptions. 'Art' not scary.
Quoting HiggieWould the scene like it if I started scanning all my family photos from the old days and uploading each one as a graphic release?
The scene will probably not like it. Adding 'converted photos' meets transparency.
Quoting HiggieOr something else: If I were to buy a box of disks at a flea market, how would it be received if I uploaded all the previous owner's digitized photos that are on the disks as scene releases?
Add a note to it.
Quoting HiggieAnd most of all, don't take part in any compo with it!
Always meet the compo rules. (Unless it states otherwise)
Quoting 4gentEPlus, y’all already forgot “gaslighters”?
I was 'exposed' in ArtRecollection (Thanks Slaxx). As a reaction to the whole 'Pixel art in the C64 demoscene'-document. (Where I stated "I will not always fully comply to these guidelines myself, but I will continue to be *transparant* about it.") |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:Demos can generally be classified as folk art. I'd say there are exceptions. 'Art' not scary.
To me it works in similar ways as the so called "Elite". If you say it about yourself - you are most likely not. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
Quote: Would the scene like it if I started scanning all my family photos from the old days and uploading each one as a graphic release?
This is actually a very good Q. CSDb typically stores every “scene” release.
What happens if a scener does something like this:-
Week 1: creates a new website and hosts 10 pictures. Scans of photos, as you suggest, and converted to PRG
Week 2: adds 20 more
..
Week 10: posts 500,000 PRGs of scanned photos
Will CSDb flood itself with all these? Suddenly we’ll have a “well, ok, we shouldn’t database -everything-…
</offtopic> |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Seeing all the crap that is being added - i wouldn't be so sure about it |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:Quote:
Would the scene like it if I started scanning all my family photos from the old days and uploading each one as a graphic release?
This is actually a very good Q. CSDb typically stores every “scene” release.
What happens if a scener does something like this:-
Week 1: creates a new website and hosts 10 pictures. Scans of photos, as you suggest, and converted to PRG
Week 2: adds 20 more
..
Week 10: posts 500,000 PRGs of scanned photos
Will CSDb flood itself with all these? Suddenly we’ll have a “well, ok, we shouldn’t database -everything-…
</offtopic>
This is offtopic but I'm glad somebody brought it up. I've been thinking about this and often discussing it for the past year. The capacity of "AI" to shovel large volume of semi-automated crap is immense. It's monstruous. Websites like CSDb that aim to "document" EVERY release are especially vulnerable to being flooded. If we don't plug the holes (errr "gatekeep") this will happen sooner or later. Then, if I may try and predict, the only way out will be to quit counting gfx as "releases" and keep only demos. That is until AI made demos hit. Yay. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
@Raistlin: so i guess you havent found IT yet :)
@Hedning: what if someone folowed your steps, but created antihuman art commando and started downwothing all the "handcrafted art"...
@Sander: Cepelia definetely is folk, not so sure about art :) That would depend on a definition.
i like this one:
Art is all creation made in a search of beauty or self expression. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:i like this one:
Art is all creation made in a search of beauty or self expression.
Here's one of my own if I may: Art is what galleries say is. |
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Dr. TerrorZ
Registered: Oct 2013
Posts: 17 |
After post-modernism, crisis in art, and de-colonization, in theory there shouldn't be left any difference between "high" and "low" art, and anyone from an institutionalized art field looking down on demoscene would be wrong.
In theory.
What I'm maybe trying to say is that having demoscene as art/folk art, wouldn't probably achieve much.
Actually, I think my experience with demoscene has been more useful in seeing various art scenes as somewhat similar to demoscene.
They are largely based in people sharing an interest, coming together in some materially organized ways (exhibitions etc) and bitching about who did what first. Only when the history books are written, it all seems very lofty and idealistic. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Quoting Dr. TerrorZWhat I'm maybe trying to say is that having demoscene as art/folk art, wouldn't probably achieve much.
Yet some morons signed demoscene as Unesco heritage, and are sucking donations because of that... |
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wil
Registered: Jan 2019
Posts: 62 |
Btw, here is the Shutterstock image (and there are more pics in that style, looking forward to the releases to come):
https://www.shutterstock.com/de/image-illustration/portrait-fan..
In the original the huntress aims to the right side. This makes some difference since a right-handed person would hold the bow with the left and pull with the right, as in Digital Storm's version on Shutterstock.
It also appears to me that Magnar's work depicts a person of color instead of the red-haired Nordic type often associated with these female hunter archetypes. So the bowhunter release deconstructs the original image by adding subtle hints towards minorities and greater diversity. We should appreciate that. </comedy> |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:and there are more pics in that style, looking forward to the releases to come
https://www.shutterstock.com/de/image-illustration/native-ameri..
🤣🤣🤣 |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
I do believe this cosplay is based on Sylvana Windrunner from Warcraft universe by Blizzard Entertainment. Unfortunately there are so many fan arts it is hard to find original pictures to link :)
Ok, found some screenshots of ingame model: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F8vkl..
Seems like a Wrath of the Lich King version.
Everything is a remix :) |
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Dr. TerrorZ
Registered: Oct 2013
Posts: 17 |
Quote: Quoting Dr. TerrorZWhat I'm maybe trying to say is that having demoscene as art/folk art, wouldn't probably achieve much.
Yet some morons signed demoscene as Unesco heritage, and are sucking donations because of that...
Now now, I know some of those morons :) But I don't know anyone who got money out of it. I think it was more about culture, coding side of demoscene and the practices around it, such as demoparties and diskmags and correspondence, and less about recognizing demoscene gfx as art. But there demoscene was kind of put in the same company with folk artsy things.
If demoscene pictures are brought out as "art", it's quite clear that scene appreciation is not very compatible with art discourses. That project of AI generating 300000 pictures, flooding and destroying the CSDb might be more interesting to art studies.
What do I know, even some kind of ironic conversion job of a fantasy art piece might be more interesting for art studies than #1 best voted scene images. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
If anyone plans a compo...
http://www.c64.sk/temp/bowhunter-ai-expanded-uncropped.png
also, different angle... (and there is a lot more of this character in different poses on stock photo servers)
https://xpertchesslessons.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2022..
Adobe stock photos |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Quoting Dr. TerrorZ
What do I know, even some kind of ironic conversion job of a fantasy art piece might be more interesting for art studies than #1 best voted scene images.
enjoy, who knows, maybe it will result in another academic degree |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Just recently someone posted a link here on csdb, where someone created a few hundred generated C64 pictures.
Those were generated by a program the guy wrote. And those certainly do belong on csdb, IMHO.
https://nopsta.com/oraand/ |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
So release them. The way Matt released Robert Ramsay’s pictures. |
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rexbeng
Registered: Aug 2012
Posts: 37 |
Quote: Just recently someone posted a link here on csdb, where someone created a few hundred generated C64 pictures.
Those were generated by a program the guy wrote. And those certainly do belong on csdb, IMHO.
https://nopsta.com/oraand/
To sum things up in an amusing way, those images come much closer to being considered "art" than the majority of scene graphics. :D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
It's actually not just images - it's full blown demos with animation and sound. So yeah, definitely belong here.
(And they fail my definition of "Art" in every possible way :=P) |
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Higgie
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 127 |
Quote: Just recently someone posted a link here on csdb, where someone created a few hundred generated C64 pictures.
Those were generated by a program the guy wrote. And those certainly do belong on csdb, IMHO.
https://nopsta.com/oraand/
jeez! now also the blockchain crap. sigh. :(
the end is near!
luckily, I know deep in my heart that _this_ is not "the scene". else i would have to leave it behind. but not before i have uploaded every crap on my harddisk (of course converted into some c64 format) to csdb. ;) |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:To sum things up in an amusing way, those images come much closer to being considered "art” than the majority of scene graphics. :D
What this sentence lacks is by whom. The answer comes between “art” and “than”. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1101 |
you guys still don't realize u got trolled? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Did you play Blue Max before? |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732 |
Quote: you guys still don't realize u got trolled?
Yes. I heard Magnar loves Poker. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote: you guys still don't realize u got trolled?
This was my first comment in this thread:
“Well, if this release and subsequent comment from the author were an art performance, a social commentary, it worked.”
So, yes, actually it was my first thought. But who could know for sure? |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
That "ai generated crap filling the database" point earlier was very interesting btw. Already that NFT project kind of sucks from that perspective that in theory all of those would warrant to be their own entry. I wonder what is CSDb and HVSC people's view on this? |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2244 |
@mankeli: If you mean stuff like these 1024 blockchain pictures - My view is, the pictures are not interesting at all, neither worth being archived. Also I'm not impressed at all, such generators were coded on native C64 (even in BASIC or Comal) back in the 80s, we were ok with turtle being occupied for hours ^^
Magnar's release is of course no database pollution. I liked that it stirred up some drama, but it soon got boring imho.
If troll and/or offtopic level increases further, we will rather close the thread than watching bitchfight getting nasty (<- torn dresses, substances by night, insults, banned accounts... not even ONtopic is worth that) |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
Yeah totally agreed. And maybe that NFT project can be "archived" as an one entry anyway. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
A script that rips them and then uploads them to csdb might be worth an entry by itself? |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Sure. That’s the first step in general direction. Ideally, we need a script that will enter random prompts into an AI image generator, send the results to an online converter, scoop them and upload to CSDb. Along with legal sized screenshots. Like, a couple of thousand a day for starters. Perhaps that would be “considered art”, really progressive, worthy of a few academic papers for sure. We’re all tired here of these boring human, handmade, regressive kitschy gfx and want the flood of true art. ;) |
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Mr SQL
Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137 |
Quote: Did you play Blue Max before?
Now that you've seen the script what else do you think Blue Max might initialize the Tracker is missing?
Agree AI scripting could be interesting for graphics too. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
I do not know, but if you define art as something nobody can properly understand, that definitely is art. |
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wil
Registered: Jan 2019
Posts: 62 |
Magnar's Bowhunter and his commentary on it have undeniably sparked a lot of discussion and inspired several follow-up releases.
The latest addition to the series is here:
Carelessly Selected Pixels
Congrats on making such a significant impact! |
