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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
a plea from an old schooler
please dont use modified PAL emulating screenshots for pictures on this site.
people may want to use this site to download unmodified c64 art in gif or png format with pure pixel definition.
if they want to see the stuff in highly debatable pal emulation mode people can download the PRG files and view them in that mode on an emulator.
Thanks
Steve |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: well in all honesty i think the pepto palette is complete cobblers.
no 64 palette i ever used has such dark and muted colours as what i see when i load a koala image into your app with that palette.
in your own app, the Wanja palette gives me the results i would expect to see on a 64.
Steve
I think pepto is perfect. Anyway its personal preferences tastes, and what TV set you had with what settings. Probaby you had a setup which was closer to Wanja's. I bet you could take pepto's display it on a certain crt with certain settings and it will look as you like it :)
btw, have you read my reply over at format war? |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: just a small point but if u can and need to change all the values, how the hell can it be accurate and definitive?
Steve
http://pepto.de/projects/colorvic/
read it how he did it. Its a nice nerd read :-) |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: "Its hard to believe."
indeed. it may sound harsh but, some people may simple remember wrong, and should check out some things on the real thing again :)
"For all I care the screenshots could be made with 4-col dither instead to FORCE people to check it out on either a real thing OR at least a decent emulator with THEIR setting of preference."
i like to encourage people to create actual screenshots, ie not use an emulator but a video grabber :)
That would solve the problem nicely if we all just had an incorrect memory but despite me not really being active since 88-89 it's been nowhere near that long since I last saw a real machine ;) I know Ste still has his. I had one till about 5 years ago, I've seen stuff running on real hardware since then when I stopped with a friend for a month.
Pete
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: http://pepto.de/projects/colorvic/
read it how he did it. Its a nice nerd read :-)
I think this is skewing towards palettes only again where the real problem is a mix of palette and pal emulation producing a fixed high (compared to 16 colours) colour image that it's really hard to do anything with if it's not what you expected/remember.
Pepto's certainly gone about it the right way and for a palette alone it is one of the better ones. I think what Ste was getting at with sliders etc is once you add PAL emulation on to that you've got a whole world of possibilities and it's all down to personal preference again so even if Pepto is 100% correct, it's easily screwed once it's put into an emulator.
Pete
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: I think pepto is perfect. Anyway its personal preferences tastes, and what TV set you had with what settings. Probaby you had a setup which was closer to Wanja's. I bet you could take pepto's display it on a certain crt with certain settings and it will look as you like it :)
btw, have you read my reply over at format war?
Yeah, hurry up and recover! He's started asking me for a paint app now :P |
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v3to
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 150 |
imo there is no perfect c64 palette for pc, each one is a compromise. try various pix on a real c64 and compare them with the pc using pepto. there are always different impressions of the colors itself.
that is mostly caused by domination effects between pixels. well known for white, yellow, light-green, blue or brown. if you experiment with dark red and dark blue or violet and orange it seems that you can increase saturation on the real thing. all of this is missing on a tft and even current vice or timanthes pal emulation does no proper show (though groepaz new pe is damn promising). guess why many graphicians check their stuff on a real thing...
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
Quote: I think this is skewing towards palettes only again where the real problem is a mix of palette and pal emulation producing a fixed high (compared to 16 colours) colour image that it's really hard to do anything with if it's not what you expected/remember.
Pepto's certainly gone about it the right way and for a palette alone it is one of the better ones. I think what Ste was getting at with sliders etc is once you add PAL emulation on to that you've got a whole world of possibilities and it's all down to personal preference again so even if Pepto is 100% correct, it's easily screwed once it's put into an emulator.
Pete
Still Vice's PAL emulation is a whole lot closer to old CRT displays, than pixels defined 100% crystal clearly without any blur effect. You're pretty wrong: a real display has more than 16 colors. I've seen displays where a line of +++++++'s looked like <><><<><> with certain fore/background colors, on clear displays you can see the char columns even if the screen is empty, there are a lot of effects and pal emulation only does a few of them.
Pepto has measured the YUV signal of various c64's with various oscilloscopes, and converted these values into RGB. How this may be wrong is over me. The emulator settings are there so the likes of you complaining about dull/dark colors can tune up saturation/brightness just like on any TV set you can do it. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1714 |
Quote: Still Vice's PAL emulation is a whole lot closer to old CRT displays, than pixels defined 100% crystal clearly without any blur effect. You're pretty wrong: a real display has more than 16 colors. I've seen displays where a line of +++++++'s looked like <><><<><> with certain fore/background colors, on clear displays you can see the char columns even if the screen is empty, there are a lot of effects and pal emulation only does a few of them.
Pepto has measured the YUV signal of various c64's with various oscilloscopes, and converted these values into RGB. How this may be wrong is over me. The emulator settings are there so the likes of you complaining about dull/dark colors can tune up saturation/brightness just like on any TV set you can do it.
Though some of those effects are like STE mentions, chroma noise, or rather the luminance signal crossing into the chroma carrier.
That's not properly emulated in any emulators AFAIK.
Anyway I agree with JCB to try to keep this thread on the screenshot policy issue.
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
I haven't read this whole thread, so this might have been said, but...
How about this. If you don't like how the PREVIEW IMAGE ('cause that's what it is to me) here on the site looks, why don't you just grab the .prg and, you know, open it in VICE and DISABLE the PAL emulation. Tah-dah! \:D/
Seriously, is it really that hard? even after scanning this thread quickly I haven't seen anyone suggest this. If I did overlook something like it, I appologize. ;_)
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http://zomgwtfbbq.info |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Oswald, please READ the thread, as tlr said this is about the screenshot policy, you keep sidetracking it to wanting to talk about pal emulation and how TVs work, I think after reading some arguments on AA you'd know I understand all that stuff a lot better than some people who claim to be "experts".
This thread is about the fact that if you ONLY make pal filtered screenshots avaialable you're forcing an incomplete/incorrect image onto people as being THE correct one. All Ste and I wanted to see was that at least an untouched image was available as well.
Also, read my posts again, I've not said Pepto is "wrong". Starting to get a bit bored with having to repeat myself now ;) I've only said that once ANY palette including Pepto is combined with an incomplete pal emulation the resulting pixels are likely wrong to some degree NO MATTER how correct the palette is.
Pete |
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