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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
Release id #203390 : Unity
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Submitted by Ze Smasher on 25 April 2021
great demo! I love the triple fisting part and the one with the big logo swing with that strange color fx (is it by you, Doc?).
I have a question tho (a simple straight question without malignity and bad feelings which I hope won't offend anyone): if you are the organizers of a party should your demo compete against other entries or be set out of the compo?
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Submitted by anonym on 25 April 2021
Appreciate the question. Something like this has happened at other parties many many times before, it took less than a minute to find several other examples here on CSDb.
For us, there were a number of reasons this happened, mostly because the timing worked out. For a new event, there are many risks involved. One of the biggest risks is a lack of release for the competitions. One way to address this is to have your own entry.
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
Thanks for the answer mighty Anonym, my good friend. I moved the discussion to the forum here; I'm interested to read what others think about this.
You sure have all the reasons to enter the compo with that (stunning!) demo. and shame on us (F4CG) we didn't even contribute with anything! so you probably have all the points while I should just shut up.
However your demo also won the compo. It won because it was superior than the other entries and deserved to win, zero doubts.
But... in this case you are the prize giver and the prize taker. so I'm asking that again: even if it already happened many times in the past, even if the prize was a simple sheet of paper saying "you won!", is this practice right and "honorable"? |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 250 |
Ultimately this is really up to the people organizing the party. Also, it enriches the party - You see where I stand ;-) and no hard feeling either Ze Smasher.
Maybe it should be a separate discussion though, not tied to this release. Moderators?
Here are some examples of similar happenings at other events in no particular order, just picking some parties from the top of my head and only checked the demo compos:
Convention 1996 -> Padua 2nd
Mekka & Symposium 2001 -> Padua 2nd, 6th (two demos!)
Datastorm 2012 -> GP 3rd place
Alvesta Party November 1988 -> Horizon 1st place
Horizon & Equinoxe 1989 -> Horizon 1st place
Horizon Easterparty 1990 -> Horizon release their demo outside the compo if records on csdb are correct.
tUM 2004 -> Smash designs 1st
Mekka & Symposium 1998 -> Smash Designs 1st
Mekka & Symposium 1997 -> Smash Designs 1st
Wired 1997 -> Smash Designs 1st
Gubbdata 2020 -> GP 1st place
Gubbdata 2019 -> GP 2nd place (and 5th in a coop)
Gubbdata 2018 -> GP 2nd place (and 3rd in a coop)
Gubbdata 2016 -> GP first place (and 10th)
Gubbdata 2015 -> GP coop (including F4CG!) 5th
Floppy 2001 -> Triad 1st
Floppy 2002 -> Triad 3rd
Floppy 2003 -> Triad 5th
Floppy 2004 -> Triad 5th
Floppy 2005 -> Triad 1st
Forever C | The Dirty Dozen -> DMAgic 2nd
North Party V8.0 -> Tropyx 2nd
X'2000 -> Xenon 1st
Zoo 1997 -> Damage 2nd
Zoo 1998 -> Damage 2nd (still not released today :( )
Zoo 2015 -> Extend 1st
Zoo 2019 -> Artline Designs 1st, Extend 2nd
I think those are enough examples that this isn't the first time. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
Quote:Maybe it should be a separate discussion though, not tied to this release. Moderators?
yes, please mods rename the topic and unlink it from the release if doable. mine was a general question, not for this particular case. thanks. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11149 |
It's also a tradition that drama emerges when organizers win the compo of their party :)
What's the problem again? :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2855 |
As long as there is public voting and not a jury deciding, there is no question of credibility, is there? :) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4618 |
Organizing Gubbdata and all; what to do as an orga then? Voting at Gubbdata has always being transparent, and counting and results summed up by Triad or LFT, so noone could call me or GP cheaters. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2855 |
And as for juries:
X'2000 -> Xenon 1st
Hard to find out these days when X started to have a jury and when they decided to abandon that practice, but i'm glad they did eventually. =) |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 250 |
Quote: Organizing Gubbdata and all; what to do as an orga then? Voting at Gubbdata has always being transparent, and counting and results summed up by Triad or LFT, so noone could call me or GP cheaters.
That's a great practice <3 it. I want to be clear, I wasn't accusing you at all, just one of the first parties that came to mind that had (great) releases by a group of one of the organizers. I don't mind this practice at all, especially when it is handled so well. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
topic is not about cheating or else. Public/transparent voting is a fantastic thing. and no drama at all here.
I was just wondering if adding a rule like "organizers can compete but not win the compo" or "organizers can have entries but not compete in the compo" could make sense. |
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Boogaloo
Registered: Aug 2019
Posts: 21 |
Quote: topic is not about cheating or else. Public/transparent voting is a fantastic thing. and no drama at all here.
I was just wondering if adding a rule like "organizers can compete but not win the compo" or "organizers can have entries but not compete in the compo" could make sense.
Why would that make sense? I don't understand. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3138 |
organizers can compete and win if they make a better demo than yours, solution is to be better. rest is just whining. ez. |
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Medicus
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 43 |
Why no rule like: "Famous people/groups are not allowed to enter compos because of name-voting"? |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
Quote: Why would that make sense? I don't understand.
because you are the prize giver AND the prize taker.
you gave us examples that this happened many times and it's common practice. I'm not whining nor complaining and I have no problems accepting that.
It'd be cool to have different examples: parties or csdb compos where the organizer says "we cannot win and/or partecipate". |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11149 |
Everything in this thread should be mandatory |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Quote: Why no rule like: "Famous people/groups are not allowed to enter compos because of name-voting"?
Also, demos should be neutral in content, not stirring up votes with propaganda and feeling (damn you, Mr.Z, and Gubbdata 2018 :-p). |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
And... you shouldn't be allowed to gift intros to other groups while trying to win competitions ;-p
Intro for Bonzai |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
Quote: And... you shouldn't be allowed to gift intros to other groups while trying to win competitions ;-p
Intro for Bonzai
uff, you hit below the belt! :) |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 250 |
Quote: Why no rule like: "Famous people/groups are not allowed to enter compos because of name-voting"?
Or: "You cannot enter a compo with a coop demo with lots of groups, as you have more voters for yourself."
I can think of some examples for that too, and one that Padua was involved in ;-)
There also is the rule not to vote for yourself that people are probably still sticking (and correctly so) for diskmags, but what about on CSDb? There the rule is, vote a 10 for yourselves and a 1 for the one who is ranked higher ;-)
Ultimately this started from an illegal cracking scene (with groups like, let's say F4CG ;-) ), so we why would we introduce more rules now, especially that this has become more of a friendly, cooperative scene over the years? Are we German? (well, some of us)...
I don't see myself adding this as a rule to a compo/event I'm setting going forward, even though I get the notion. I want to provide entertainment for the attendees and attract good releases. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11149 |
There are still people who take this voting nonsense serious? =) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Quote: And as for juries:
X'2000 -> Xenon 1st
Hard to find out these days when X started to have a jury and when they decided to abandon that practice, but i'm glad they did eventually. =)
Wondering if I should post, but there you go..
I can't recall if there was still jury voting in 2000, or 1998 was the last time. I believe we won fairly that year, maybe you should check the other entries.
Anyway, if groups can't compete on their own parties, that would be a loss for the scene. Is it fair? Not sure. Unfair? Not sure.
Probably the whole "who won" thing depends on who you ask, so there will always be discussion. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
Quote:Is it fair? Not sure. Unfair? Not sure.
most appreciated answer for me in this thread. thanks! |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
Forgot to say : you guys won fairly! Congrats! :-) |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1051 |
I demand a recount! We have many witnesses that say there were massive vote dumps: dead people voting, aliens voting and I even heard some Atari sceners were voting! /o\
anyways, since all (?) current parties have public voting, this is an already solved problem... |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Yo, one of the guys from the demo that came second here. _o/
Great discussion here.
We got 2nd place by some definitions, we might have won votes based on name voting, perhaps some Xenon members voted only for our demo and who knows maybe we got downvotes from our contestants.
Who cares?
We are very happy with the result and extremely enjoyed by the comments during the stream and those here on CSDb. It's not every day that about 500 people have full attention for your production all at once.
Great party!
Stick to whatever voting system you like. |
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Toggle
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 32 |
Okay so I'm just a minor participant at Transmission64 but here are my two cents.
I guess I see where Smasher is coming from and it's a legitimate question: When there are no physical prizes to renounce as an "organizing winner" and pass on to the next highest participant, then what can you do? When the only prize is the ranking, you cannot give that away to others.
Is that fair or unfair? I just think that Anonym, Franky and Mibri went more than the extra mile to organize this whole event and still they managed to be involved in multiple releases too. I honestly think it would be rather unfair to exclude the organizing groups after all the blood, sweat and tears that went into planning/organizing the event as long as there's a fair public voting system.
Let's be honest: It's way more motivating for the whole team anyway if you can plan on releasing your stuff *in* a compo even if it's "your own". |
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Honcho
Registered: Apr 2020
Posts: 32 |
As a "newbie" that until recently could only count a couple of Amiga parties in the late 80's to my list I guess my opinion isn't worth even two cents, but think Toggle is spot on.
Through hard work and stirring up an interest the guys managed to get ~100 releases, which surely would have been an amazing achievement even in the old days so if they also wanted to chip in with the odd release themselves, great, just wonder how on earth they found the time!
It's all for fun and my own little contribution didn't stand a chance ind the gfx compo, but I thoroughly enjoyed the event anyway :)
But we're all entitled to our opinions and the beauty of hosting your own event is that you can set the rules while others can choose to play, or not ;)
Take care and stay safe!! |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 575 |
Just to take Gubbdata as an example compo, since ZeSmasher did mention it earlier… I’ve entered 2 demos there: Delirious 11 in 2018 and The Dive in 2019. Both times coming 2nd.
I entered these to Gubbdata because I wanted to support G*P’s party. To help make the compo more interesting. I could’ve submitted these out-of-compo for sure - but that doesn’t make for a more interesting compo …
In 2018, there was only Soft Machine (Triad) that I would consider to be a proper full-blown demo, other than ours… so it would’ve been a straightforward and boring win for Triad if we hadn’t entered. 2019 was a little better with demos from Booze (Elder Scrollers) and Fairlight (Skaneland 2) … but, still, the compo really benefited from our entry.
It was ok in the 80s to enter compos at your own parties, when there were many more top-end entries, so I don’t see a problem with it now. A lot of today’s compos would be pretty dull without these I reckon. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11149 |
I remember a lot of controversy about it in the 80s too :) |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
Quote: I remember a lot of controversy about it in the 80s too :)
Ikari & Zargon Party 1989
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Results will always be arbitrary, as we don’t have a written format for demos.
And indeed, I wish people would stop caring about votes, it is creatively liberating. (Vote for me!) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11149 |
Thats why i always liked the jury voting... its not more "unfair" than public votes, but leaves more room for unpopular decisions. |
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Medicus
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 43 |
Quote: Thats why i always liked the jury voting... its not more "unfair" than public votes, but leaves more room for unpopular decisions.
Or a combination of both? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
I remember when my group Studio Style won the compo on Demobit '95. It was actually a shame, because there were technically much better entries ;-) Problem is that only our demo was running on emulator available at that time and voting system was relying on screenshots of entries (you had voting disc etc. no hand counting). Our demo was the only one that had screenshot(s)?. I don't even know who was doing them and how it was done, I don't remember. Anyway I had a speech at price giving ceremony and I said there that it's a shame that we won. Similar speech was made by Amiga organizer, they also won ;-)))
I would call that good old times now, but other friends in the scene React and Cult groups which were competing were very disappointed about that, me too.
Demobit 1995 |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
Quote: Wondering if I should post, but there you go..
I can't recall if there was still jury voting in 2000, or 1998 was the last time. I believe we won fairly that year, maybe you should check the other entries.
Anyway, if groups can't compete on their own parties, that would be a loss for the scene. Is it fair? Not sure. Unfair? Not sure.
Probably the whole "who won" thing depends on who you ask, so there will always be discussion.
Probably 2000 was the last. I was on 2000, and there was a jury vote. |
